Cameras in the cockpit...

[Minimums]

My understanding is that, the idea of having camera’s recording a pilot(s) every move, has been, and for good reason, highly frowned upon by the industry. Privacy, trusting professionals to do their job without interference, etc.

I’m aware Alpa has pushed back against this for years in major airlines. Matter of fact i didn’t think it existed anywhere outside the flight training world for review purposes..

However i just had a conversation with an old friend of mine flying corporate aircraft for a certain canadian company, who revealed to me that they are having them installed in all their aircraft. It has started off innocently enough, for safety purposes, supposedly with a third party barrier to prevent direct management viewing (cough), but there are rumours its been used against a few guys already. Company is not unionized (yet).

Been out of the game for a while, but i can’t see this becoming a thing. Are other operators pushing this Bs as well?

[C-GGGQ]

It's coming from trucking etc. The cameras can tell if you're not watching the road or getting fatigued etc. I foresee that eventually alpa will lose out on this one.

[valleyboy]

As with FDM the worry is using this information by managers and the company for using information gathered as a weapon. Unionized groups do have the protection of their collective agreements and FDM is a component of the contract. Cameras will come and for the non union groups there is the risk of abuse but I can see unions grouping cameras with existing FDM language and it will have a robust filter system and protection for all involved.

IF used properly under SMS and proper guidelines followed it could certainly be a good tool for promoting safety.

[altiplano]

Sounds like, if it ever comes, it will make a good spot to hang my hat.

[goingnowherefast]

With cameras and even de-identified video, there is the ability to recognize the individual. With FDM, that's not possible.

The only way I see this working is through a CVR type interface, but a proprietary method to retrieve the video only available to the TSB.

If management has enough time to go through thousands of hours of cockpit video, sounds like it's time for the executives to trim some fat. I propose we put cameras behind every managers desk. That way we know for sure they're working hard, and not wasting time on Facebook or YouTube.

[Commonwealth]

Can we focus on putting cameras on the passengers in the cabin before the pilots in the cockpit? Seems like safety would be improved more. An opinion from the airline side.

Also I do not think an airline manager wants evidence of fatigue. There is much invested in pretending it does not exist.

[teacher]

The day we make cameras mandatory in operating rooms among other places to reduce the thousands of people killed each year in our healthcare system than maybe i’ll Entertain the idea of cameras in the flight deck. Never mind the fact that there isn’t a public body that identifies and investigates medical errors TC can “go somewhere”.

We are tested and monitored constantly and it does make it safer but seriously. When is it enough.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/patients- ... -1.4507664

[digits_]

The day we make cameras mandatory in operating rooms among other places to reduce the thousands of people killed each year in our healthcare system than maybe i’ll Entertain the idea of cameras in the flight deck. Never mind the fact that there isn’t a public body that identifies and investigates medical errors TC can “go somewhere”.

We are tested and monitored constantly and it does make it safer but seriously. When is it enough.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/patients- ... -1.4507664

How about cameras in management offices while they try to sweep SMS reports under the rug ?

[Bede]

The day we make cameras mandatory in operating rooms among other places to reduce the thousands of people killed each year in our healthcare system than maybe i’ll Entertain the idea of cameras in the flight deck. Never mind the fact that there isn’t a public body that identifies and investigates medical errors TC can “go somewhere”.

We are tested and monitored constantly and it does make it safer but seriously. When is it enough.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/patients- ... -1.4507664

They do for laproscopic procedures.

[Capt. Underpants]

Several hospitals in the USA have cameras monitoring every surgical procedure - from the mundane to the critical. They use these videos for training, for post-operative clinical reviews and if needed, to defend lawsuits in court.

Cameras are watching our every move in most urban centres today. Regardless of how I may feel about it personally, I've accepted the fact that there will be cockpit cameras in the future. The TSB's investigation into a PA31 crash west of Calgary benefitted from having the video files from an aftermarket camera installation behind the cockpit seats. I' sure the benefits of that data caught the attention of the higher-ups at the TSB.

I feel we'd be much better served if we worked with our employers to establish FDM-style programs for cockpit video systems that focus on maintaining a safe operation, instead of fighting what is inevitable.

[iflyforpie]

For the most part it’s people pretending they have interesting enough lives for anyone to care.

Like the guy who bought the Blackberry because it was super secure to run his online organic cat food business.

[Heliian]

For the most part it’s people pretending they have interesting enough lives for anyone to care.

Exactly, if you're doing your job then I don't have a problem with it. I think there are more benefits to having cameras than not.

[doiwannabeapilot]

No, not super necessary, but extremely inexpensive and potentially useful.
If a car has a $100 dash cam, why would a 50 million dollar airplane not have a few?

It sure would be helpful if we saw exactly what happened on the Max crashes.

[goldeneagle]

It sure would be helpful if we saw exactly what happened on the Max crashes.

And this is why it is essentially inevitable

[doiwannabeapilot]

If it was found through the video to be pilot negligence or jncompetence,
Would the Maxes still have been grounded?

Rip to the people who perished, and peace to the families.

[Capt. Underpants]

If it was found through the video to be pilot negligence or jncompetence,
Would the Maxes still have been grounded?

MCAS is fundamentally flawed, so yes, they would still be grounded.

[C.W.E.]

The real question is will Boeing be fatally damaged by this disaster.

[nothingbeatsflying]

Cameras in the cockpit are protected under the Aeronautics Act under the same clause as CVR's. You can sue your employer for accessing that information. It's TSB's property.

FDM is fair game.

[Capt. Underpants]

Cameras in the cockpit are protected under the Aeronautics Act under the same clause as CVR's. You can sue your employer for accessing that information. It's TSB's property.

FDM is fair game.

The word “camera” does not appear anywhere in the Aeronautics Act or the CARS. The word “video” only appears in relation to the use of video for cabin safety briefings.

You are referring to the CTAISB Act, where it does address cockpit videos for all modes of transport. It does so in the same context as CVRs and FDRs. Those recorders are indeed only to be used by the TSB unless permission is given. However, airline FDM programs still have access to the same flight data as that which is recorded on the FDR. They simply take it from a different recording device which is capable of capturing data from the relevant ARINC bus. It would be possible to do the same with the video data. But seeing as the regs do not mandate cockpit video recordings, it’s arguable that the TSB act would not apply to a video recording device installed for an independent purpose.

[yycflyguy]

The real question is will Boeing be fatally damaged by this disaster.

Have you monitored their stock? Barely a fart in the wind. It's up over a 2 year period, about the same over 1 year. It is a $200+ BILLION company with lucrative military contracts as well as several commercial airliners in use over decades of sales. As soon as the grounding is lifted the stock will go through the roof.

As far as using cameras in the MAX accidents - it would not have changed one thing and they wouldn't get any additional information that they don't already have via CVR/FDR. Cameras in the cabin are a better idea than the flight deck.