Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

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C.W.E.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:10 pm

Aviation is dynamic, there are risks, identifying and mitigating risks is the business. Never hand flying is a risk of its own and potentially much more unsafe. Whatever 'danger' passengers endure while a pilot (ahem) pilots the airplane, is easily trumped by the better levels of competence and safety from having a crew that can actually fly.
Exactly.
If you think allowing a pilot to fly a plane is an unacceptable reduction in safety, I'd suggest you need more Sim time to solidify your own proficiency.
I'd suggest anyone with that mindset find another occupation.
Passengers pay expecting competent crews (which is where safety starts), that includes maintaining skills which necessitates actually flying from time to time. There's a time and a place for it, likely not during a complicated departure in the mountains at night, IMC, into a long crew day while managing a major malfunction with a brand new guy. That's a great time to use automation. I trust a professional crew to know when it's a good time to practice flying and expect them to be well practiced.
Exactly.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by valleyboy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:23 pm

How many pilots actually manually fly to minimums on an imc day let alone raw data. Companies just don't allow it. The catch 22 that automatics are taking over to the point all flight regimes will but done by the computers and even things like wind shear will be left to an autopilot mode. It will be the antique airplane enthusiasts and the mum and pop flying "outdated" aircraft alone with the northern 705 operators that will maintain pilot skills but certainly not the level one carriers who want efficiently and cost savings. Automation makes total sense to bean counters.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by GoinVertical » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:46 pm

ReserveTank wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:18 pm
Pardon my dissent, but we are paid to fly accurately and with as much situational awareness advantage as possible. Your passengers aren't paying for you to practice hand flying beyond what's necessary to complete the flight. Rent a 172 or book a sim slot.
We are paid to be able to fly accurately and with situational awareness in the event that automation fails and shit hits the fan. How much you think you need to practice that is up to you... If you feel hand flying degrades your situational awareness that much on a good day - then you probably need to practice hand flying.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:49 pm

Beyond any doubt fully automated airline category airplanes is the future of airline flying.

In fact I hope to live to see it happen.

For me it will be quite the experience to have been in aviation and having actually flown from the age of " Radio Range Navigation " to the age of fully automatic flying monitored by a pilot or two.

I remember the last Radio Range airway I flew in the Yukon in one of those hand flown machines the DC3, not sure exactly what year it was so I will go search it on Google. :mrgreen:
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by GoinVertical » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:53 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:23 pm
How many pilots actually manually fly to minimums on an imc day let alone raw data. Companies just don't allow it.
You don't need to hand fly to minimums in IMC to be good at it... take advantage of good weather, and ask the guy you're flying with if he's okay with you doing the ILS raw data from the intercept down to minimums with you keeping your head inside until minimums. It won't create any issues as long as it's a nice day without anything else going wrong, and the person you're flying with isn't straight out of line indoc. If they're not comfortable with it, ask the next guy on the next pairing. Most will (should, anyway) be happy to see it.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Meatservo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:58 pm

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Last edited by Meatservo on Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Meatservo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:58 pm

GoinVertical wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:53 pm

You don't need to hand fly to minimums in IMC to be good at it... take advantage of good weather, and ask the guy you're flying with if he's okay with you doing the ILS raw data from the intercept down to minimums with you keeping your head inside until minimums. It won't create any issues as long as it's a nice day without anything else going wrong, and the person you're flying with isn't straight out of line indoc. If they're not comfortable with it, ask the next guy on the next pairing. Most will (should, anyway) be happy to see it.
Many companies including the northern ones will state in their SOPs that hand-flying to retain competency is "encouraged" but none of them have a program or policy by which this monitored, tracked, or standardized. Which tells me that it's just lip-service and they don't actually care whether you "retain competency" or not. In fact if you should have the misfortune of exceeding a limitation or earning a CADORS, your reputation for enjoying a bit of manual flying might well come back and bite you in a way you will have difficulty justifying when you're up on the rug. Most of us respect a pilot who wants to "retain competency" but you'd better be perfect at it now that the plane records everything you do. When it comes down to it, most managers consider automation, not training or "practice" to be their lifeline when it comes to the ever-decreasing experience levels in the cockpit.

As much as I don't want to admit it, I'm starting to agree with the point that reserve tank made a few posts ago. For me and the purposes of this discussion it's not so much what passengers "deserve" (even though they do deserve everything we can do to keep them safe) but from a management point of view, "retaining competency" is superfluous and not part of the bottom line at all. That's why the SOPs basically say "do it if you want to, I guess". They sure don't contain that degree of careless ambiguity about anything else.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:27 pm

Here is a question that I have.

Is there a downside to being able to hand fly an airplane?

As far as I can determine there are no certified fully automatic machines flying yet, or are there?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by ReserveTank » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:51 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:48 pm
Pardon my dissent, but we are paid to fly accurately and with as much situational awareness advantage as possible. Your passengers aren't paying for you to practice hand flying beyond what's necessary to complete the flight. Rent a 172 or book a sim slot.
Wow.

Has aviation come to the place that pilots are not allowed to hand fly an approach?

What happens when your automatics fail?
GoinVertical wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:46 pm
ReserveTank wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:18 pm
Pardon my dissent, but we are paid to fly accurately and with as much situational awareness advantage as possible. Your passengers aren't paying for you to practice hand flying beyond what's necessary to complete the flight. Rent a 172 or book a sim slot.
We are paid to be able to fly accurately and with situational awareness in the event that automation fails and shit hits the fan. How much you think you need to practice that is up to you... If you feel hand flying degrades your situational awareness that much on a good day - then you probably need to practice hand flying.
I don't disagree that skill needs to be maintained. Of course, you should be good at hand flying, but the practice should not be on customer paid time. You'll fly portions of the flight by hand in many airliners anyways, because of AOM requirements. Just no need to do it down to mins on a crummy morning when all of your servos are working. And definitely no need to do it up in the flight levels. Most companies send you to sim at least twice per year, where you can hand fly until you're content. That's where you can practice AP/FD fails and raw data flight.

It increases your workload greatly when hand flying. Part of this is the way that the industry has evolved. Excessive commands, callouts, checklists, and other legal CYA activities clutter the cockpit now...it's a fact of the airline industry now. If you err, and you will at some point, you'll have to explain to the feds, CP, and every subsequent employer why you didn't use all of the available tools to complete the flight "safely." I've seen a few good guys get burned thinking that they were doing themselves a favour.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Gannet167 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:08 pm

Sims are highly structured and time compressed scripts. There's no time or money for proficiency flying in the Sim.Even if there were, twice a year isn't enough to be proficient.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Cessna 180 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:01 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:23 pm
How many pilots actually manually fly to minimums on an imc day let alone raw data. Companies just don't allow it. The catch 22 that automatics are taking over to the point all flight regimes will but done by the computers and even things like wind shear will be left to an autopilot mode. It will be the antique airplane enthusiasts and the mum and pop flying "outdated" aircraft alone with the northern 705 operators that will maintain pilot skills but certainly not the level one carriers who want efficiently and cost savings. Automation makes total sense to bean counters.
i don't know which company you work for, but i fly a transport category aircraft and the only time we are prohibited from hand flying an approach is with a cat 2 ILS.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by jakeandelwood » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:31 am

ReserveTank wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:18 pm
Pardon my dissent, but we are paid to fly accurately and with as much situational awareness advantage as possible. Your passengers aren't paying for you to practice hand flying beyond what's necessary to complete the flight. Rent a 172 or book a sim slot.
I'd bet the passengers would disagree with you, hand flying is more like staying current and sharp rather than "practicing". It's not like you are heading over to the practice area to do some stalls and steep turns, the passengers should not even know you are hand flying from A to B.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Beefitarian » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:44 am

First officer, "Wow, that's the hardest landing I've ever seen!"

Captain, "Yeah, I don't know why that happened, I have been practicing lots, just last week I was doing greasers in a 172."
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by ReserveTank » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:40 pm

Gannet167 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:08 pm
Sims are highly structured and time compressed scripts. There's no time or money for proficiency flying in the Sim.Even if there were, twice a year isn't enough to be proficient.
Different companies have different ways that they utilize the sim time, I'll give you that point. I disagree-twice per year comes around quickly. The sim should be a tool to keep you sharp, not bring you back from regression. It should never be difficult to follow the cue with the AP off anyhow.
Beefitarian wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:44 am
First officer, "Wow, that's the hardest landing I've ever seen!"

Captain, "Yeah, I don't know why that happened, I have been practicing lots, just last week I was doing greasers in a 172."
Almost funny. Most airline guys are hand flying the portion below mins, are they not?
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by corethatthermal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:54 pm

IF PILOTLESS AIRLINERS could decrease ( guaranteed) the accident rate, even marginally, then it would be implemented ! The folks in power do not care about the what ifs , ( a pilot saving many lives on an automated flight ) they are political numbers people ! Do you think the Asiana San Francisco disaster has changed the whole pilot ability equation at that airline ? it's a numbers game, to hell with passengers lives !
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Beefitarian » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:25 pm

Yes, it was intended to be funny. I believe most planes are still being landed by a person.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by jakeandelwood » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:22 pm

ReserveTank wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:40 pm
Gannet167 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:08 pm
Sims are highly structured and time compressed scripts. There's no time or money for proficiency flying in the Sim.Even if there were, twice a year isn't enough to be proficient.
Different companies have different ways that they utilize the sim time, I'll give you that point. I disagree-twice per year comes around quickly. The sim should be a tool to keep you sharp, not bring you back from regression. It should never be difficult to follow the cue with the AP off anyhow.
Beefitarian wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:44 am
First officer, "Wow, that's the hardest landing I've ever seen!"

Captain, "Yeah, I don't know why that happened, I have been practicing lots, just last week I was doing greasers in a 172."
Almost funny. Most airline guys are hand flying the portion below mins, are they not?
"Hand flying the portion below mins"
So they are maintaining their hand flying skills by flying the last 10 seconds of the flight? Wow, that's a lot of hand flying.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:50 pm

"Hand flying the portion below mins"
So they are maintaining their hand flying skills by flying the last 10 seconds of the flight? Wow, that's a lot of hand flying.
:smt044 :smt044 :smt044
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by ayseven » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:24 pm

I had an autopilot once. I turned it on twice. I cannot actually visualise flying but not flying. But I guess if it makes things BETTER, it's good. I always thought hand flying was the easy part if being a pilot, but i guess I've been wrong.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by ReserveTank » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:09 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:22 pm
ReserveTank wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:40 pm
Gannet167 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:08 pm
Sims are highly structured and time compressed scripts. There's no time or money for proficiency flying in the Sim.Even if there were, twice a year isn't enough to be proficient.
Different companies have different ways that they utilize the sim time, I'll give you that point. I disagree-twice per year comes around quickly. The sim should be a tool to keep you sharp, not bring you back from regression. It should never be difficult to follow the cue with the AP off anyhow.
Beefitarian wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:44 am
First officer, "Wow, that's the hardest landing I've ever seen!"

Captain, "Yeah, I don't know why that happened, I have been practicing lots, just last week I was doing greasers in a 172."
Almost funny. Most airline guys are hand flying the portion below mins, are they not?
"Hand flying the portion below mins"
So they are maintaining their hand flying skills by flying the last 10 seconds of the flight? Wow, that's a lot of hand flying.
You can make sport of my opinion if you'd like. Modern (and I mean from the 90's onward especially) airliners are easy to fly and don't require copious hours of practice to fly well. If you need it, I question your general skills. If you aren't confident that you can follow a cue by hand if the AP fails, again I question your basic skills. You are supposed to have a handle on this before you fly big iron. The airplane isn't there for your personal training time. They are paying you to enter the aircraft with a proficient mindset, not to show up and hand-bomb it around.

There's a time and a place for everything. I hand flew many flavours of props for thousands of hours, and so did many of you. You shouldn't need confidence building exercises outside of the training environment.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by Eric Janson » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:14 am

There's a thread running on Airliners about Pilots cancelling flights because the auto-pilot is INOP. WTF?

I get there's an issue with RVSM but if the company is happy with the extra fuel burn I'd be quite happy to fly below RVSM Airspace without an auto-pilot.

These days:-

-Aircraft Manufacturers can no longer build reliable aircraft.

-Engine Manufacturers can no longer build reliable Engines.

-Pilots can no longer fly their aeroplanes.

What a sad state Aviation is in.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:13 am

ReserveTank wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:09 pm
There's a time and a place for everything. I hand flew many flavours of props for thousands of hours, and so did many of you. You shouldn't need confidence building exercises outside of the training environment.
These days kids are going to Jazz with 800hrs, never to really hand fly again. Gone are the days of 800hrs in the right seat of a charter Cessna 404 before being awarded the privilege of an right seat in an old King Air with a crap autopilot that sorta works, but nobody uses.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:37 am

ReserveTank wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:09 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:22 pm
ReserveTank wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:40 pm


Different companies have different ways that they utilize the sim time, I'll give you that point. I disagree-twice per year comes around quickly. The sim should be a tool to keep you sharp, not bring you back from regression. It should never be difficult to follow the cue with the AP off anyhow.



Almost funny. Most airline guys are hand flying the portion below mins, are they not?
"Hand flying the portion below mins"
So they are maintaining their hand flying skills by flying the last 10 seconds of the flight? Wow, that's a lot of hand flying.
You can make sport of my opinion if you'd like. Modern (and I mean from the 90's onward especially) airliners are easy to fly and don't require copious hours of practice to fly well. If you need it, I question your general skills. If you aren't confident that you can follow a cue by hand if the AP fails, again I question your basic skills. You are supposed to have a handle on this before you fly big iron. The airplane isn't there for your personal training time. They are paying you to enter the aircraft with a proficient mindset, not to show up and hand-bomb it around.

There's a time and a place for everything. I hand flew many flavours of props for thousands of hours, and so did many of you. You shouldn't need confidence building exercises outside of the training environment.
It doesn't seem like there is a time and place for any of it in the airline world at all, the auto pilot goes on after rotation then comes off just before touch down. Where is this "time and place for everything" ? It's like your kid wanting to do math in their head because they want to stay sharp and you saying no, use the calculator, it's more accurate. This world is gotten itself into a sad state of affairs. What mr. Jansen said about canceling flights because of an inop auto pilot just sums it all up completely.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by valleyboy » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:07 am

Unfortunately auto pilot is a no go item because of airspace, I guess they could dispatch the aircraft below 280 but I doubt in this day and age they would do that, especially since the computers are flying even in manual mode. This is a throw back to the classics and no "modem aircraft" would be dispatched without a functioning auto pilot. Like a dog chasing its tail. As I maintained, stick and rudder skills will eventually fade into oblivion. It's a simple fact of technology. Automatics do it better, we are still in the era of requiring a thinking warm body in the flight deck but even that will fade and AI will take over and short haul will be replaced by high speed vacuum tubes.
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Re: Updated MCAS ‘Safe’ Says MAX Technical Team

Post by ReserveTank » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:51 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:37 am
It's like your kid wanting to do math in their head because they want to stay sharp and you saying no, use the calculator, it's more accurate.

I haven't met many people that are better than the computer. Case in point from one man's observation-There's a stack of flight logs that show up on the CP's desk every week because the captains try to out-math the calculator. Repeat offenders get the carpet dance and some get a boot to the rear.

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:37 am
This world is gotten itself into a sad state of affairs. What mr. Jansen said about canceling flights because of an inop auto pilot just sums it all up completely.
Eric Janson wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:14 am
There's a thread running on Airliners about Pilots cancelling flights because the auto-pilot is INOP. WTF?
Generally, airline pilots don't CANCEL flights. That's an operational control decision. The crew can write it up and decide if they want to operate with an MEL on the AP system. These days, an airline crew must think twice before being released with MELs because it is a legally binding decision. If the cards are stacking against the crew, like they're getting tired, they have bad weather, and/or other MELs which require constant crew attention, the crew can decide that it's not the safest option for the flight. The system is overly litigious and doesn't forgive crews for their mistakes. The company is not going to help you if you bung up a flight related to an MEL. We just had a captain get knocked back to the right seat for "helping out." He agreed to dispatch the plane, they got busy in bad weather, exceeded an aircraft limitation, and the CP busted him back indefinitely. The captain was not a bad stick, either. Just not his day...but still no one defended him. That's what we are dealing with out there.

Who is the old feller on this board who keeps saying that they "never killed anyone by refusing to fly"?
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