Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

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shawnthesheep
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Jazz Approach

Post by shawnthesheep » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:59 pm

https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach

First Cadetship in Canada!

Conditional offer of employment before you start the program

Graduate with frozen ATPL + CRJ type rating.
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Captain X
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Captain X » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:21 pm

Apply with Resume, and a Bank draft :shock:
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by flyingcanuck » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:18 pm

shawnthesheep wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:59 pm
https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach

First Cadetship in Canada!

Conditional offer of employment before you start the program

Graduate with frozen ATPL + CRJ type rating.
I didn't think we needed pilots THAT bad
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LegoMan
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by LegoMan » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:46 pm

Clearly a new revenue stream for Jazz and CAE.
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digits_
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by digits_ » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:01 pm

That's so European of them.

How long before we see the self funded type ratings pop up at other companies :?:
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shawnthesheep
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by shawnthesheep » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:19 pm

What's everyone's guess for how much it'll cost?

135K?
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CaptainKirk
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CaptainKirk » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm

I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
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Last edited by CaptainKirk on Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GoinVertical
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by GoinVertical » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:15 pm

Wait, they're going to make people pay for this?

I figured it would just be a 5 year bond or something.
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Hangry
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Hangry » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:33 pm

CaptainKirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm
I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
no. you just "pay" obscene amounts of money to get a job.

great hot take
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:27 pm

Still no clue how people will get the PIC time to begin PIC-US, or get the actual ATPL. Nice steady stream of career FOs.
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dhc#
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by dhc# » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:56 pm

So does Jazz management figure that the real shortage of pilots will begin in about 18 months (since program states 18 months to completion) if they are setting a cadet program now?
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Outlaw58 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:03 pm

While I am not surprised to see this this morning, I am of the opinion we (as a profession) should head the other way.

In other words, I would have liked to see TC take a stance and require that all ATPL PIC requirements are fulfilled as a pre-requisite for writing either the A's or the IATRA.

Yeah I know it would make it tougher for the top end operations to recruit FOs, but it would definetly give a break to the tier 3s. It would also provide the tier 1 and 2 with more experienced pilots without the requirement to run a PICUS program (training depts are already swamped even without PICUS programs). Not likely to happen however with things heading where they are atm.

58
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:16 pm

Kinda surprised at this. Jazz is going to run low of experienced FO to upgrade sooner or later. These guys and girls will have no chance at upgrading for a long time but maybe that’s what they want since most are leaving for AC when they get the ATPL and 2000 hrs. I can’t imagine how much all this would cost but it would for sure be in the 6 figures.
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LicensedToThrill
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by LicensedToThrill » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:59 pm

You better believe DEC is coming to Jazz...
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by shawnthesheep » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:47 pm

I think they might train them to 150 PIC. Very high possibility that they will meet PICUS requirements before starting
goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:27 pm
Still no clue how people will get the PIC time to begin PIC-US, or get the actual ATPL. Nice steady stream of career FOs.
Outlaw58 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:03 pm
While I am not surprised to see this this morning, I am of the opinion we (as a profession) should head the other way.

In other words, I would have liked to see TC take a stance and require that all ATPL PIC requirements are fulfilled as a pre-requisite for writing either the A's or the IATRA.

Yeah I know it would make it tougher for the top end operations to recruit FOs, but it would definetly give a break to the tier 3s. It would also provide the tier 1 and 2 with more experienced pilots without the requirement to run a PICUS program (training depts are already swamped even without PICUS programs). Not likely to happen however with things heading where they are atm.

58
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ant_321
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ant_321 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:49 pm

CaptainKirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm
I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
How exactly will attracting more people into the industry be “good for everyone”? Canada has some of the worst WAWCONs in the first world. If there was to be a larger surplus of pilots that would get worse.
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by flyingcanuck » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:56 pm

Great for those who go through it, but I have to agree that we wont be able to negotiate anything better if the'yre getting people like that..
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by vermont » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:54 pm

Hangry wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:33 pm
CaptainKirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm
I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
no. you just "pay" obscene amounts of money to get a job.

great hot take
Is an instructor rating free? I'd say anyone capable of becoming an FO would easily make 50k a year in another field, you give up years of your life to pay your dues making shit wages and giving up a job that'd make you at least 50k a year.

Even if this is 100K it probably equals out when you consider opportunity cost
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CaptainKirk
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CaptainKirk » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:02 pm

Every generation has seen a benefit that the previous generation hasn’t seen. This is the best time to be alive in all of history.

Let’s talk about aviation. I feel like most people I talk to aren’t interested in being a pilot. One of the reasons is the very high barrier for entry with accumulating thousands of hours to finally fly for a major. There are other reasons too, some are misconceptions about needing perfect vision to fly or being good at match etc.

However,
This cadet program would be a great incentive to someone in high school looking at a possible career in aviation. As in a quicker career progression and ability to do fun work for a living. Most of us got into this business to escape a desk job.

As for the WAWCON pay, that’s another debate.
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by shawnthesheep » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:35 pm

CaptainKirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:02 pm
Every generation has seen a benefit that the previous generation hasn’t seen. This is the best time to be alive in all of history.

Let’s talk about aviation. I feel like most people I talk to aren’t interested in being a pilot. One of the reasons is the very high barrier for entry with accumulating thousands of hours to finally fly for a major. There are other reasons too, some are misconceptions about needing perfect vision to fly or being good at match etc.

However,
This cadet program would be a great incentive to someone in high school looking at a possible career in aviation. As in a quicker career progression and ability to do fun work for a living. Most of us got into this business to escape a desk job.

As for the WAWCON pay, that’s another debate.
You have to realize

You need a post secondary diploma/degree to apply to this program

Read the requirements.
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CaptainKirk
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CaptainKirk » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:46 am

So what? Go get a diploma. How much easier do you need it to be?
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ant_321
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ant_321 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:08 am

CaptainKirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:02 pm
Every generation has seen a benefit that the previous generation hasn’t seen. This is the best time to be alive in all of history.

Let’s talk about aviation. I feel like most people I talk to aren’t interested in being a pilot. One of the reasons is the very high barrier for entry with accumulating thousands of hours to finally fly for a major. There are other reasons too, some are misconceptions about needing perfect vision to fly or being good at match etc.

However,
This cadet program would be a great incentive to someone in high school looking at a possible career in aviation. As in a quicker career progression and ability to do fun work for a living. Most of us got into this business to escape a desk job.

As for the WAWCON pay, that’s another debate.
Once again, explain to me how getting more people becoming pilots is a good thing for someone in the industry. I’m no economist but I do understand supply and demand. Also, these programs are typically prohibitively expensive. If they become the norm in Canada we will end up in a situation like most of Europe where becoming a pilot will only be possible for someone with wealthy parents. I talked to a gate agent in AMS last summer whose parents had just written a cheque for 50,000 euros for his first year or a 4 year program. If these pay to fly schemes make their way over here there will be a lot of good candidates who simply won’t be able to afford to enter the industry. How many people do you fly with that wouldn’t be there if they had to pay $100k+ for flight school and a type rating? For me the answer is a lot and I’m one of them.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:06 am

Sault and Confed will still exist as options for the normal folk (not rich kids).

If this "Jazz Approach" is as expensive as it sounds, I suspect they won't see very many applicants. A 150 grand training college for a $38 grand/yr job in a rollercoaster industry with no guarantees and constant concessions. Can go shove it....
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ogc
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ogc » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:28 am

So.

Minimum cost as stated on the website $126k + tax

Plus you already need a diploma or degree and you are paying for your own type rating.

Bad precedent in my opinion, and that's a big investment to make that I cant imagine very many people would be able to afford.

Smart on Jazz part if they can get even 1 person to pay for it.
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Optimus Primer » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:37 am

CaptainKirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm
I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
It isn't a logical step for Canadian aviation at all. In "most of the other countries," they don't have anything other than airlines. How is this good for everyone in aviation besides management and shareholders? The way I see it, if this is successful, the company gets to continue to deny there is a pilot shortage and therefore, has no reason to ever increase wages.

I think this Jazz Approach should go missed because I don't think it will ever really take off.
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