Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

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Beefitarian
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Beefitarian »

I paid to ride in a CRJ, it sucked.
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by GhostRider6 »

CaptainKirk wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:56 pm
GhostRider6 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:46 pm
CaptainKirk wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
[/quote)


Hi Captain Kirk,

We can agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this program lines the CEO’s pocketbooks and creates a supply of cheap labor.

This program provides an endless supply of cheap labor who have not put in their dues. ( maybe the “ nominal 100,000+) could be dues in itself.

This increases supply of low cost unskilled labor
akin to moving manufacturing overseas.

As long as the major have this “supply” WAWCON will deteriorate.

I can also see this decreasing initial training costs - truly a win for the industry’s business side of things but not so much for the employees.

In my opinion, only a Canadian version of Colgan will turn things around... it’s truly sad. Eventually, as they say the holes in the cheese will line up - inexperienced flight crew, weather, fuel , mechanical technical terrain..

And I haven’t even thrown in black swan events into the picture..

A 1500 HR captain paired with a 200 hour college grad.. YIKES!!
..
..

Yes I can see how pairing low experience with even more low experience is not a good thing. However, what do you suggest is the solution considering it’s getting harder to find pilots who already have ATPL’s?

If you were in charge what would you do? Other than saying this is bad, no I don’t like that.

I know I would want to prune my employees on company standards from day 1. Have them invested right from the beginning into their seeing their career blueprint. It’s a win-win.

I have flown with many college FO’s. Despite the fact they get shit on I have always admired their level of preparation for the flight. Of course experience lacks but in 3 years of doing the same job, multiple times a day, you get good very quick.

Hello Captain Kirk,

A small portion of our job is regurgitating SOPs. The SOP does not cover EVERY situation. The SOP provides a framework of expected behavior from engine from arrival at the base to leaving the base. However, it’s only a framework.

I think better wage and working conditions will attract greater experience.

I’d sooner see supply decrease, wages increase than lower the bar and further denude working conditions and safety. Ideally, I’d love to be able to stay in a career that I love while providing for me family and maintaining a proper work- life balance.

As for proper training ... Are experienced instructors going to be teaching these cadets from day 1 in their C152? - I imagine not... but I cannot say for certain.

SOPs can be taught... It’s the personality, experience and professionalism that leads to their adherence. Anyone can choose the degree to which they want to adhere to an SOP. This is pruned in flight school ...but it’s up to the the individual.

Again, if I was a CP ( which I’m not) I’d be looking for professionalism, previous experience, suitability of previous experience in my theatre of operations and if the person is humble, hard working and can learn. By the time someone reached several thousand hours the person has likely had several things go awry up front - likely there was some things that went well and some take aways. - again we can agree to disagree. I’d be looking for adherence to SOP’s but the ability to think critically and step outside the box while augmenting the captain’s role and not overstepping. The ability to think under pressure. I wouldn’t be looking for the cookie cutter the cookie cutter only applies to certain situations- step outside of the cookie cuter and the real fun begins ... - this is just me though.

I’d also be looking for someone who, when under the RIGHT circumstances can step up. -eg. Crew incapacity, loss of SA, medical issues. Or alternatively, can make a judgement call of when to take control and when and how to bring the captain into the fold when SA is lost or a crew error occurs. The last thing I’d want in a 705 machine is a power struggle with a pimple faced college kid and a captain. - experience teaches this and how to apply this agency correctly. ( which still won’t be 100%)

Fundamentally, life experience carries into the cockpit.. it is not something that can be taught in a textbook.. this is applicable to any industry.
( doctors, lawyers, police, paramedics, psychologists)

What about situational awareness? I know where mine was at 200 hours. ( ugh)

Pilots sometimes need to step out of the SOP in the interest of safety and make tough judgement calls ... ( eg. Black swan events) There isn’t an SOP for every single event. - only experience can teach when to step out of the “box.”

Again, this is my .02 from 15 years of flying. What do I know ?

I see this as a less than stellar thing for aviation and i do not see this as a win-win at all nor will I ever.

You can agree to disagree and we can leave it there..

However, I think a college kid can excel at re- Here is a point where we CAN agree on.

Someone with 200 hours has way more narrow window of tolerance than a 4000 hour groomed professional. ( notice I say professional - I’m sure there’s 4000 hour hacks too... but even the hack probably has a higher window of tolerance)

Why is the USA moving away from 200 hour 705 pilots post Colgan Air? I don’t think it’s mythical and mysterious thing that the WAWCON has improved since the US has instituted new ATPL rules. It’s simple economics...
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by GhostRider6 »

Again, I’m not saying Jazz is a bad place to be. ( nor did you imply that I said this)

I’m just questioning the validity of this experience level in the cockpit.

I’m also seeing this program as a positive for the purely for the business and not safety and the industry working conditions as a whole. It’s a move to secure a cheap long- term, consistent labor supply for Jazz- nothing more. It’s not a goodwill gesture on behalf of CAE or Jazz.

At start pay, that 100+ K will take a long time to pay off... Now, there’s just more justification to keep the pay where it is as an “entry level job.”

Ultimately, students without the dough to afford this program will still be tossing bags up in Northern Wherever. No pay.. Only now, once they pay their dues they’ll have to take a pay cut and it’s not likely to improve...

I’ll take the kid who has tossed bags, flown a Navajo, King Air or 206 over the college kid.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by phillyfan »

Newbies got what they wanted. A cool hat and a seat, without roughing up their soft hands or ever learning what real work is, I pay for my kids to be babysat. Just think of this as parents paying Jazz to babysit millennials.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by daedalusx »

Mapleflt wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:43 pm Why is it that aviation in Canada keeps managing to find ways to go backwards
There is a very simple fix for that. Have all the unions band together and lobby for 1500 hr and a real ATPL (none of that frozen BS) in order to operate a 705 airliner. Instead we have corrupt unions who facilitates cadets programs and P2F - sad.

It'll fix wages and will solve the problem of incompetent kids buying their jobs through daddy's wallet. Then you'll get to witness a real pilot shortage.

It worked down south.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by bearitus »

Doesn't Jazz hire mostly everyone from most colleges including the two year ones? That would be way cheaper than doing this cadet program.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

daedalusx wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:48 pm
Mapleflt wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:43 pm Why is it that aviation in Canada keeps managing to find ways to go backwards
There is a very simple fix for that. Have all the unions band together and lobby for 1500 hr and a real ATPL (none of that frozen BS) in order to operate a 705 airliner. Instead we have corrupt unions who facilitates cadets programs and P2F - sad.

It'll fix wages and will solve the problem of incompetent kids buying their jobs through daddy's wallet. Then you'll get to witness a real pilot shortage.

It worked down south.
This. Yet ANOTHER reason why we should not be supporting this bullsh*t idea of PICUS.
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by KenoraPilot »

Side comment: What does a CPL + Multi-IFR cost these days approx? (non-collage)

$126,000 seems......expensive. Mind you I did all my training back very early 2000's and cost me $45,000 all in (including float rating).
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by goingnowherefast »

Some of the college kids choose to stay at the northern operators. The first company to offer them a 100k a year. "Golden handcuffs" isn't it?

I guess this is a way for the candidate to pay for all the trainings and be handcuffed to Jazz...in the right seat. Sooner rather than later, DEC will come along to hire some northern captains and fly with the "jazz approach p2f kids"
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Flylikearedneck »

Can’t wait for the voice crack cabin announcements....

Wait...
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by trey kule »

I have to wonder how big the pool is of diploma/degree graduates who have and want to pay $126k for a job.

Some solid pre program research? Or just some board room high fiving what they see as a great plan.
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Captain Kirkk »

So is Jazz officially a pay to fly airline? Cause another shithole airline, Lion Air, is a P2F and they seem to go off the runway every month, among other things.

This’ll end well...
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by GhostRider6 »

Captain Kirkk wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:27 pm So is Jazz officially a pay to fly airline? Cause another shithole airline, Lion Air, is a P2F and they seem to go off the runway every month, among other things.

This’ll end well...

I thought you were all for it ? Unless I’m missing sing something you were talking about how it’s a “ win - win” for the industry?
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by flyer 1492 »

This will be interesting to watch, Seneca can barely keep up with all the students they have.
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ant_321 »

GhostRider6 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:29 pm
Captain Kirkk wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:27 pm So is Jazz officially a pay to fly airline? Cause another shithole airline, Lion Air, is a P2F and they seem to go off the runway every month, among other things.

This’ll end well...

I thought you were all for it ? Unless I’m missing sing something you were talking about how it’s a “ win - win” for the industry?
I think you are mistaking Kirkk for Kirk. Haha
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by GhostRider6 »

ant_321 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:09 pm
GhostRider6 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:29 pm
Captain Kirkk wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:27 pm So is Jazz officially a pay to fly airline? Cause another shithole airline, Lion Air, is a P2F and they seem to go off the runway every month, among other things.

This’ll end well...

Hahah! Sh$&&! Kirkk if you aren’t Captain Kirk I’m sincerely sorry .. :smt008 :goodman: :prayer: :rolleyes:


I thought you were all for it ? Unless I’m missing sing something you were talking about how it’s a “ win - win” for the industry?
I think you are mistaking Kirkk for Kirk. Haha
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Jean-Pierre »

trey kule wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:16 pm I have to wonder how big the pool is of diploma/degree graduates who have and want to pay $126k for a job.

Some solid pre program research? Or just some board room high fiving what they see as a great plan.
I would say this program is targeting wealthy immigrant that come from India, China, or middle-east and already have a degree they get from Canada or their home country. They can pay the money and get the job without having to worry about navigating the Canadian aviation industry. They can take their experience at Jazz back to their home country, or to Air Canada with 90% acceptance rate.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Rowdy »

Jean-Pierre wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 pm
trey kule wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:16 pm I have to wonder how big the pool is of diploma/degree graduates who have and want to pay $126k for a job.

Some solid pre program research? Or just some board room high fiving what they see as a great plan.
I would say this program is targeting wealthy immigrant that come from India, China, or middle-east and already have a degree they get from Canada or their home country. They can pay the money and get the job without having to worry about navigating the Canadian aviation industry. They can take their experience at Jazz back to their home country, or to Air Canada with 90% acceptance rate.
Except they're handcuffed to Jazz for FIVE years! If they dont cut and run for an overseas gig..

I'm sure this will solidify the requirement for DEC.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by yhz41 »

Embarrassing.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by trey kule »

There was a program a few years back to train career FOs. Anybody know how that is working, or worked out? IIRC it was called a multi crew license or something along those lines.

I am not entirely certain this has been well thought out. And why would they be chained to Jazz for five years?
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