Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

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7ECA
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by 7ECA »

trey kule wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:00 pm There was a program a few years back to train career FOs. Anybody know how that is working, or worked out? IIRC it was called a multi crew license or something along those lines.
The Multi-Crew Licence (permanent FO) was announced a number of years back by Transport Canada, for god only knows what reason - well, I can guess that it has something to do with integrated program schools... - I can't actually recall if even one has been issued though.

I saw an article a few days ago where it stated CAE is firing up a MCL program for Volotea (some Euro airline), to train permanent FOs.

Here it is: https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases ... h-volotea/
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CPT.HarshColdReality
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

goingnowherefast wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:20 pm Some of the college kids choose to stay at the northern operators. The first company to offer them a 100k a year. "Golden handcuffs" isn't it?

I guess this is a way for the candidate to pay for all the trainings and be handcuffed to Jazz...in the right seat. Sooner rather than later, DEC will come along to hire some northern captains and fly with the "jazz approach p2f kids"
A recipe for shock and awe in the flight deck.
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Johnny767
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by Johnny767 »

A few short years ago PIlots were exploited by the General Aviation scumbags. Invest 100K in training and education and you too can be loading freight for Joe McBryan or dispatching for Ken Borek for a couple years. If you're a good little do-bee we'll get you checked out in the right seat.

Now Pilots might be stupid enough to get exploited by Seneca and Jazz, this time financially. Why on earth would anyone pay for a RJ Type Rating. Jazz may just as well put you on the Dash or the Q, even if they do put you on the RJ they will still be required to give you the full company course.

Ridiculous waste of money!

Think we see entitled little brats now, just wait for the Graduates of this program.
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ayseven
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by ayseven »

It is just a little odd that the company is not ponying up the money for the people they will have on the hook for 5 years - like the military does, for example. If there was no 5 year catch, I would say it was a fair deal; with that little detail, less so... But hey downturns happen, and they are guaranteeing work for 5 years...
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trey kule
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by trey kule »

If you believe that guaranteed job in a downturn, you might want to review seniority numbers, furloughs, and the options an employer has with regard to bonds.

The whole bond thing puzzles me. Jazz has nothing invested in hiring these pilots, so other than initial training costs to an already rated pilot, I cant see they could demand a penalty for quitting.

In any event, I expect this program was maybe ill conceived, and will quietly go the way of the MCPL.
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Last edited by trey kule on Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DanWEC
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by DanWEC »

Compared with doing a conventional CPL path, why would anyone do this instead of joining the RCAF instead??
While I look back very fondly on some the awesome jobs I've had in aviation, if I had it to do all over again I probably would have gone the military route.
This just sounds like a horrible time. Stuck doing SOP's in a 172 for the end goal of sitting in an RJ for 30k a year?
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ayseven
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by ayseven »

Captain Kirk is right though this time. Who goes through anything and ending up with a job guarantee? One of my old flight instructors told me something that always stuck with me, while I was doing my first IFR rating: Nobody owes you a job. Look, Jazz and regionals in general, are not finding the people they like, obviously. There is NO pilot shortage, but a shortage of the type of person THEY want. So this is a way to control the type of people they get.
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ayseven
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by ayseven »

Well, if you put it that way...
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Heliian
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Heliian »

7ECA wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:49 pm
trey kule wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:00 pm There was a program a few years back to train career FOs. Anybody know how that is working, or worked out? IIRC it was called a multi crew license or something along those lines.
The Multi-Crew Licence (permanent FO) was announced a number of years back by Transport Canada, for god only knows what reason - well, I can guess that it has something to do with integrated program schools... - I can't actually recall if even one has been issued though.

I saw an article a few days ago where it stated CAE is firing up a MCL program for Volotea (some Euro airline), to train permanent FOs.

Here it is: https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases ... h-volotea/
You can still be a captain, the licence is for those restricted by medical conditions mostly.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by jakeandelwood »

LegoMan wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:42 am Only rich kids will sign up for this, which means Jazz is in it for the money and not quality of candidates. Definitely lost respect for Jazz. I don't know if I would give my kid $126k to get a $40k a year job, sounds like a pretty terrible offer.
You'd be better off sending your kid to trade school to be an Electrician.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by GhostRider6 »

Yup! Pretty gutting! I’ll bet you it becomes harder for the 1000 HR pilot who has slung bags and cut their teeth up north to get a job with Jazz with this one. The 1000 + hour driver wont fit the koolaid requirements. - the college kid sure as sh&@ will.
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7ECA
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by 7ECA »

Heliian wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:00 am You can still be a captain, the licence is for those restricted by medical conditions mostly.
Not if you only hold an MCL.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... nsing.html
Division VII.1 — Multi-crew Pilot Licence

Aeroplanes — Privileges

401.32 (1) The holder of a multi-crew pilot licence — aeroplane may act as co-pilot of a turbine-powered aeroplane that is operated day or night, under VFR, VFR OTT or IFR, if the aeroplane

(a) is a transport category aircraft;

(b) is an aeroplane for which a minimum flight crew document has been issued that specifies a minimum flight crew of two pilots;

(c) is of a type in respect of which the holder’s licence is endorsed with a rating; and

(d) is operated under subpart 4 of Part VI or under Part VII.

(2) The holder of a multi-crew pilot licence — aeroplane may act as pilot-in-command of any aircraft for the purpose of the holder’s flight training if the flight training is conducted in accordance with section 401.19.
What's kind of interesting, though, is that beyond the basic information on the licence Transport has no study and reference guide freely available nor the licence application form, etc., for the MCL.
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L39Guy
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by L39Guy »

airway wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:56 pm Like a lot of you, I also thought 126K sounded like it was too much. But after thinking about it a bit I'm not so sure. I'ts been a long time since I have been involved with initial pilot training, so maybe someone can help me out with the numbers.

With the Jazz Approach program for 126K + tax (13%?) you get:

1. Private Pilot Licence
2. Commercial Pilot Licence
3. Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
4. Integrated Airline Transport Pilot License training with ATPL written
5. CRJ200 Type Rating
6. A semi guaranteed job at Jazz as a F/O when you are finished

Montair quotes $90,000 + tax for the first 4 items, based on completing the training with minimum hours. I suspect the 126K also assumes this. Hopefully someone has more realistic numbers for this training. I don't know what a CRJ 200 rating costs and it would be hard to put a number on a semi guaranteed job at Jazz without having to work for minimum wage up north for a couple of years, but i'm thinking 126K total is not bad.

I you want to be an Airline pilot for minimum training cost, you would still have to come up with the funds for the first 3 Items. I'm guessing 75K?
A lot of focus has been on the cost side of the equation and that is perfectly reasonable however one should also consider the benefit side of the equation too.
If the above numbers are correct, then the Jazz/CAE/Seneca program is not too far off of doing items 1 to 4 separately, assuming those can be done at other flying schools at 100% efficiency, i.e. no extra hours, delayed training due to lack of instructors, weather, etc. I would add a fudge factor to the Montair numbers to account for those contingencies.
Now, the benefit side. If one's career aspiration is to fly up north then this is not for you. If one's career aspiration is to fly in a 705 airline environment then this is a good investment because:
a) one's first job is with Jazz flying beautiful aircraft, living in Southern Canada somewhere
b) Jazz has a terrific training program for new hires and one will get amazing training and experience in an airline environment
c) with the Jazz mobility to AC there will be career progression at Jazz
d) with Jazz mobility to AC there will be career progression to AC. AC will be taking a minimum of 60% of their pilots from Jazz with a 90% success rate so getting hired at Jazz is, in essence, getting hired at Air Canada. Getting hired at Air Canada may not be everyone's cup-of-tea but for those where that is their career objective it is the ticket to Air Canada.
e) getting hired at AC outside of Jazz or Sky Regional will take years and years. AC's hiring will slow in the next few years following the FTD and MAX expansion and be closer to 200 pilots per year. If 70% of those come from Jazz/Sky Regional that leaves 60 jobs per year shared among expats with serious jet experience, corporate, military, Westjet, Encore, Porter and other really, really qualified pilots. You would need to spend at least 10 years in the industry to get that kind of experience and probably need a post secondary education too in order to competitive.

On balance, the cost/benefit looks pretty good if flying in a 705 environment is where you want to go. In addition to this, managing the risk of getting hired at Jazz is zero and AC is near zero.
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digits_
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Re: Jazz Approach

Post by digits_ »

L39Guy wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:14 pm
On balance, the cost/benefit looks pretty good if flying in a 705 environment is where you want to go. In addition to this, managing the risk of getting hired at Jazz is zero and AC is near zero.
Careful there. CAE ran a similar scheme with a 737 typerating for Ryanair.

90% of those students that passed, got hired. It would suck big monkey balls if you paid 40k for a typerating, and did not get hired because of a random reason outside of your control.
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airway
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by airway »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:01 pm
Except they're handcuffed to Jazz for FIVE years! If they dont cut and run for an overseas gig..

I'm sure this will solidify the requirement for DEC.
There is nothing on the CAE website about a bond or contract for 5 years.
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North Shore
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by North Shore »

Hmm, Seneca, hey?

So an RJ or Q will be the first plane that the actually retract the gear on?! And what happens when they get a xwind greater than 10 knots?
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Rowdy »

airway wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:22 pm
Rowdy wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:01 pm
Except they're handcuffed to Jazz for FIVE years! If they dont cut and run for an overseas gig..

I'm sure this will solidify the requirement for DEC.
There is nothing on the CAE website about a bond or contract for 5 years.

My Correction, CAE and Jazz have signed the partnership for 5 years.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by goingnowherefast »

North Shore wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:35 pm Hmm, Seneca, hey?

So an RJ or Q will be the first plane that the actually retract the gear on?! And what happens when they get a xwind greater than 10 knots?
The captain flies...captain will be doing a lot of the flying.
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FICU
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by FICU »

Diploma or degree plus $130k means it’s a rich kid cadet program.
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lownslow
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by lownslow »

Can they at least include a semester-long ramp internship in Deerfart Manitoba or something?
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