Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

[shawnthesheep]

So what? Go get a diploma. How much easier do you need it to be?

It's 126K

This would only be logical if you went straight from high school

Imagine paying for living expenses on top of this, if you don't have rich parents you can't afford this

First pay 40K for a degree

Than go pay 126K plus let's say 15K for living expenses for the 18 months

Make senses eh

[Daniel Cooper]

Jazz in association with Seneca College and CAE are launching a pay for type rating program with the promise of a FO job at Jazz upon completion (some conditions apply). Coming with zero flight time you will start with 18 months of integrated ATPL training at Seneca followed by the CRJ200 type rating at CAE Toronto. Cost is $126k CAD plus taxes. You also must have a Post-secondary degree, diploma or equivalent before joining the program.

https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/beco ... z-approach

[daedalusx]

Disgusting.

[LegoMan]

Only rich kids will sign up for this, which means Jazz is in it for the money and not quality of candidates. Definitely lost respect for Jazz. I don't know if I would give my kid $126k to get a $40k a year job, sounds like a pretty terrible offer.

[daedalusx]

I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.

I thought you were done ‘mentoring’ here Mr PFO4life.

[Victory]

Only rich kids will sign up for this, which means Jazz is in it for the money and not quality of candidates. Definitely lost respect for Jazz. I don't know if I would give my kid $126k to get a $40k a year job, sounds like a pretty terrible offer.

They want a post secondary education too so factor in another $75K if you want a university degree and you're looking at $200k for that job.

[LegoMan]

I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.

This raises the barrier to entry even higher. I don't see how this will attract more people when you are paying a crazy amount of money for a conditional job offer.

[airway]

Like a lot of you, I also thought 126K sounded like it was too much. But after thinking about it a bit I'm not so sure. I'ts been a long time since I have been involved with initial pilot training, so maybe someone can help me out with the numbers.

With the Jazz Approach program for 126K + tax (13%?) you get:

1. Private Pilot Licence
2. Commercial Pilot Licence
3. Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
4. Integrated Airline Transport Pilot License training with ATPL written
5. CRJ200 Type Rating
6. A semi guaranteed job at Jazz as a F/O when you are finished

Montair quotes $90,000 + tax for the first 4 items, based on completing the training with minimum hours. I suspect the 126K also assumes this. Hopefully someone has more realistic numbers for this training. I don't know what a CRJ 200 rating costs and it would be hard to put a number on a semi guaranteed job at Jazz without having to work for minimum wage up north for a couple of years, but i'm thinking 126K total is not bad.

I you want to be an Airline pilot for minimum training cost, you would still have to come up with the funds for the first 3 Items. I'm guessing 75K?

[jschnurr]

When I graduated from Seneca in 2009, the fees (tuition) was about $3000 per semester (3 semesters/yr, 4 years). Tuition total was about $36,000. Living expenses, books, supplies, ect on top of that.

The seneca website states that the tuition for the 4 year FPR program is now about double that ($6000/semester), or perhaps close to $75,000 for the entire program.

This new program is 18 months at the college (presumably with all the flight training, but not all the classroom training of the 4 year FPR program), followed by 8 weeks at CAE for the type rating. Can a type rating on a CRJ simulator be close to $50,000? I don't know... something seems to be over-inflating the cost somewhere here...

[vermont]

When I graduated from Seneca in 2009, the fees (tuition) was about $3000 per semester (3 semesters/yr, 4 years). Tuition total was about $36,000. Living expenses, books, supplies, ect on top of that.

The seneca website states that the tuition for the 4 year FPR program is now about double that ($6000/semester), or perhaps close to $75,000 for the entire program.

This new program is 18 months at the college (presumably with all the flight training, but not all the classroom training of the 4 year FPR program), followed by 8 weeks at CAE for the type rating. Can a type rating on a CRJ simulator be close to $50,000? I don't know... something seems to be over-inflating the cost somewhere here...

Even better that CAE OWNS the sim

[Bradley Tucker]

This makes me sick. And they wonder why we they are not getting people. No one can afford to pay that kind of money to work for what they pay.

[GhostRider6]

I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
[/quote)


Hi Captain Kirk,

We can agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this program lines the CEO’s pocketbooks and creates a supply of cheap labor.

This program provides an endless supply of cheap labor who have not put in their dues. ( maybe the “ nominal 100,000+) could be dues in itself.

This increases supply of low cost unskilled labor
akin to moving manufacturing overseas.

As long as the major have this “supply” WAWCON will deteriorate.

I can also see this decreasing initial training costs - truly a win for the industry’s business side of things but not so much for the employees.

In my opinion, only a Canadian version of Colgan will turn things around... it’s truly sad. Eventually, as they say the holes in the cheese will line up - inexperienced flight crew, weather, fuel , mechanical technical terrain..

And I haven’t even thrown in black swan events into the picture..

A 1500 HR captain paired with a 200 hour college grad.. YIKES!!

[CaptainKirk]

So what? Go get a diploma. How much easier do you need it to be?

It's 126K

This would only be logical if you went straight from high school

Imagine paying for living expenses on top of this, if you don't have rich parents you can't afford this

First pay 40K for a degree

Than go pay 126K plus let's say 15K for living expenses for the 18 months

Make senses eh

Bro, If I can do it as an immigrant who came here in grade 10, worked 2 jobs to pay for flight training, then you can do it. If I added the years I spent begging for my first flying job (it wasn’t as easy as it is now), then finally instructing, then flying in the North, just to get to the regionals. It would’ve been far more efficient to take an additional loan and gotten the crj200 type rating with an almost guaranteed job offer right after.

[CaptainKirk]

I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
[/quote)


Hi Captain Kirk,

We can agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this program lines the CEO’s pocketbooks and creates a supply of cheap labor.

This program provides an endless supply of cheap labor who have not put in their dues. ( maybe the “ nominal 100,000+) could be dues in itself.

This increases supply of low cost unskilled labor
akin to moving manufacturing overseas.

As long as the major have this “supply” WAWCON will deteriorate.

I can also see this decreasing initial training costs - truly a win for the industry’s business side of things but not so much for the employees.

In my opinion, only a Canadian version of Colgan will turn things around... it’s truly sad. Eventually, as they say the holes in the cheese will line up - inexperienced flight crew, weather, fuel , mechanical technical terrain..

And I haven’t even thrown in black swan events into the picture..

A 1500 HR captain paired with a 200 hour college grad.. YIKES!!

..
..

Yes I can see how pairing low experience with even more low experience is not a good thing. However, what do you suggest is the solution considering it’s getting harder to find pilots who already have ATPL’s?

If you were in charge what would you do? Other than saying this is bad, no I don’t like that.

I know I would want to prune my employees on company standards from day 1. Have them invested right from the beginning into their seeing their career blueprint. It’s a win-win.

I have flown with many college FO’s. Despite the fact they get shit on I have always admired their level of preparation for the flight. Of course experience lacks but in 3 years of doing the same job, multiple times a day, you get good very quick.

[GRK2]

Because some tw*t will see it as a way to jump over the hard working guys n girls who are actually out learning something about the career they have chosen. I didn't look too closely, but is there a length of term attached to this oh so awesome deal? I have flown with a number of p2f wunderkids and as my boss at the time said...keep a sharp eye on these idiots, they'll try to kill you.

I feel so sorry for the newbies who are churning out the work and getting bypassed by a buncha snotty c*nts who are flashing the cash to get ahead and thinking they know more than others.

(Rant over...buncha shit makin' me mad today!)

[Beefitarian]

I paid to ride in a CRJ, it sucked.

[GhostRider6]

I’ve always said this would happen. It’s the next logical step for Canadian aviation. Most of the other countries you don’t have to “pay your dues” up North or work as a flight instructor. You simply finish your training and get on with an airline in a mentor ship role. Sit as a Second officer and learn by watching for 5 years. Then work as an FO for another 5 years then CA.

I do think this will be good for everyone in aviation as it will attract more people into this profession.
[/quote)


Hi Captain Kirk,

We can agree to disagree.

From my perspective, this program lines the CEO’s pocketbooks and creates a supply of cheap labor.

This program provides an endless supply of cheap labor who have not put in their dues. ( maybe the “ nominal 100,000+) could be dues in itself.

This increases supply of low cost unskilled labor
akin to moving manufacturing overseas.

As long as the major have this “supply” WAWCON will deteriorate.

I can also see this decreasing initial training costs - truly a win for the industry’s business side of things but not so much for the employees.

In my opinion, only a Canadian version of Colgan will turn things around... it’s truly sad. Eventually, as they say the holes in the cheese will line up - inexperienced flight crew, weather, fuel , mechanical technical terrain..

And I haven’t even thrown in black swan events into the picture..

A 1500 HR captain paired with a 200 hour college grad.. YIKES!!

..
..

Yes I can see how pairing low experience with even more low experience is not a good thing. However, what do you suggest is the solution considering it’s getting harder to find pilots who already have ATPL’s?

If you were in charge what would you do? Other than saying this is bad, no I don’t like that.

I know I would want to prune my employees on company standards from day 1. Have them invested right from the beginning into their seeing their career blueprint. It’s a win-win.

I have flown with many college FO’s. Despite the fact they get shit on I have always admired their level of preparation for the flight. Of course experience lacks but in 3 years of doing the same job, multiple times a day, you get good very quick.

Hello Captain Kirk,

A small portion of our job is regurgitating SOPs. The SOP does not cover EVERY situation. The SOP provides a framework of expected behavior from engine from arrival at the base to leaving the base. However, it’s only a framework.

I think better wage and working conditions will attract greater experience.

I’d sooner see supply decrease, wages increase than lower the bar and further denude working conditions and safety. Ideally, I’d love to be able to stay in a career that I love while providing for me family and maintaining a proper work- life balance.

As for proper training ... Are experienced instructors going to be teaching these cadets from day 1 in their C152? - I imagine not... but I cannot say for certain.

SOPs can be taught... It’s the personality, experience and professionalism that leads to their adherence. Anyone can choose the degree to which they want to adhere to an SOP. This is pruned in flight school ...but it’s up to the the individual.

Again, if I was a CP ( which I’m not) I’d be looking for professionalism, previous experience, suitability of previous experience in my theatre of operations and if the person is humble, hard working and can learn. By the time someone reached several thousand hours the person has likely had several things go awry up front - likely there was some things that went well and some take aways. - again we can agree to disagree. I’d be looking for adherence to SOP’s but the ability to think critically and step outside the box while augmenting the captain’s role and not overstepping. The ability to think under pressure. I wouldn’t be looking for the cookie cutter the cookie cutter only applies to certain situations- step outside of the cookie cuter and the real fun begins ... - this is just me though.

I’d also be looking for someone who, when under the RIGHT circumstances can step up. -eg. Crew incapacity, loss of SA, medical issues. Or alternatively, can make a judgement call of when to take control and when and how to bring the captain into the fold when SA is lost or a crew error occurs. The last thing I’d want in a 705 machine is a power struggle with a pimple faced college kid and a captain. - experience teaches this and how to apply this agency correctly. ( which still won’t be 100%)

Fundamentally, life experience carries into the cockpit.. it is not something that can be taught in a textbook.. this is applicable to any industry.
( doctors, lawyers, police, paramedics, psychologists)

What about situational awareness? I know where mine was at 200 hours. ( ugh)

Pilots sometimes need to step out of the SOP in the interest of safety and make tough judgement calls ... ( eg. Black swan events) There isn’t an SOP for every single event. - only experience can teach when to step out of the “box.”

Again, this is my .02 from 15 years of flying. What do I know ?

I see this as a less than stellar thing for aviation and i do not see this as a win-win at all nor will I ever.

You can agree to disagree and we can leave it there..

However, I think a college kid can excel at re- Here is a point where we CAN agree on.

Someone with 200 hours has way more narrow window of tolerance than a 4000 hour groomed professional. ( notice I say professional - I’m sure there’s 4000 hour hacks too... but even the hack probably has a higher window of tolerance)

Why is the USA moving away from 200 hour 705 pilots post Colgan Air? I don’t think it’s mythical and mysterious thing that the WAWCON has improved since the US has instituted new ATPL rules. It’s simple economics...

[GhostRider6]

Again, I’m not saying Jazz is a bad place to be. ( nor did you imply that I said this)

I’m just questioning the validity of this experience level in the cockpit.

I’m also seeing this program as a positive for the purely for the business and not safety and the industry working conditions as a whole. It’s a move to secure a cheap long- term, consistent labor supply for Jazz- nothing more. It’s not a goodwill gesture on behalf of CAE or Jazz.

At start pay, that 100+ K will take a long time to pay off... Now, there’s just more justification to keep the pay where it is as an “entry level job.”

Ultimately, students without the dough to afford this program will still be tossing bags up in Northern Wherever. No pay.. Only now, once they pay their dues they’ll have to take a pay cut and it’s not likely to improve...

I’ll take the kid who has tossed bags, flown a Navajo, King Air or 206 over the college kid.

[phillyfan]

Newbies got what they wanted. A cool hat and a seat, without roughing up their soft hands or ever learning what real work is, I pay for my kids to be babysat. Just think of this as parents paying Jazz to babysit millennials.

[daedalusx]

Why is it that aviation in Canada keeps managing to find ways to go backwards

There is a very simple fix for that. Have all the unions band together and lobby for 1500 hr and a real ATPL (none of that frozen BS) in order to operate a 705 airliner. Instead we have corrupt unions who facilitates cadets programs and P2F - sad.

It'll fix wages and will solve the problem of incompetent kids buying their jobs through daddy's wallet. Then you'll get to witness a real pilot shortage.

It worked down south.