Minimum rest in the 703 world

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fish4life
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by fish4life »

I’ve seen a letter from an inspector saying 10-11 hours at a rest facility and this assumes you are not still on call.
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HiFlyChick
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by HiFlyChick »

For people who talk about needing 12 hours off to get 8 hours of sleep, I would like to point out that not everyone lives/works where you do. I live 10 minutes from the hangar - literally. Yup, closer than most hotels (when you factor in waiting for the shuttle). I get that the regs are designed to make everyone everywhere safe, but frankly, a 12 hr rest period is total overkill in some regions/cases.

I like the idea of the poster who said to explicitly ask the company to state when their rest period starts. One problem with the current regs is having the duty day end when the engines stop instead of when you leave the airport. I could never understand why the start is defined as when you arrive, but the end not being when you leave. There would need to be a provision that someone who has exceeded their duty day doing ground duties doesn't actually count as exceeding duty day (for the purposes of punishment), but it could count towards total time on duty by extending the length of rest, or something similar. If the start of duty day can be recorded officially, even though not written in the journey log, why not record the end in a similar manner rather than simply saying it's when the engines stop? I am amazed that TC will look at a Navajo driver in a Canadian winter with no hangar option and actually accept that the duty day ended when the engines stopped. It's certainly taken me hours when I was by myself in a really strong wind to put full wing, tail and engine covers on and plug in the engines, and that doesn't even count having to wait for fueling before you start because you have to taxi from the pump to parking. Granted, I'm very slow, but still....
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digits_
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

Your duty day ends when engines shut down, but your rest doesn't start until you leave the airport. The idea most likely being that yoy don't endanger pax by putting on engine tents past 15 hours.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by valleyboy »

medivac companies have been double dipping for ever. Using one crew when 2 crew makes more sense operationally but pressuring a single crew to cover. They take advantage of the egos and invincibility of youth. Today's pilot is starting to *get it* - fatigue is dangerous and operators dislike this.
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digits_
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

HiFlyChick wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:47 am For people who talk about needing 12 hours off to get 8 hours of sleep, I would like to point out that not everyone lives/works where you do. I live 10 minutes from the hangar - literally. Yup, closer than most hotels (when you factor in waiting for the shuttle). I get that the regs are designed to make everyone everywhere safe, but frankly, a 12 hr rest period is total overkill in some regions/cases.
Does everyone at your company live within 10 minutes? Is it a condition of your employment that you live within 10 minutes?

The rules have to accomodate all your pilots, including the pilots living furthest away from the company. If the company wishes to base their rest on a 10 minute commute, they have to enforce that rule with all their pilots. My guess is, they will not have many pilots left if they were to actually do that. So increase the rest appropriately to match the actual situation.

Living an hour away from the airport is not uncommon.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by BaldChewbacca »

Thanks for the great input everyone. Some more information for clarity though...
The company has medivac, but I'm not on that aircraft. Just the charters/sched. Medivac is on call whereas we're on reserve. The medivacs are clearly told when their rest starts and we are not.
An email was sent out about a year ago now that explained that we could be called in at any time, but are considered on rest as well, basically overlapping the two cases to better suit the company. This is the reason for me making this post in the first place. Most of the responses here have not addressed the issue.
I like the idea of asking them when rest starts, but they just reference the old email stating that if we weren't called in then we were resting (which is obviously bs, but I don't know what to legally do about that, hence asking for help here)
The email in question has actually been deleted off their email server (probably because they know it's at best sleazy) and I don't have a copy saved elsewhere.
I can't find great information to help myself and the other pilots in this situation, so the best answer I've seen so far is to just call TC. Does anyone have a number to call for that, and what department or person would I actually need to speak with?

Thanks in advance everyone
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Capt. Underpants »

700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:05 pm 700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.
He is on reserve, not on call.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Capt. Underpants »

digits_ wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:58 pm
Capt. Underpants wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:05 pm 700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.
He is on reserve, not on call.
What the OP described is not “reserve”. He described coming back from a flight and then being called back in later in to continue their duty. That is considered either “standby” or continuous duty.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:32 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:58 pm
Capt. Underpants wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:05 pm 700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.
He is on reserve, not on call.
What the OP described is not “reserve”. He described coming back from a flight and then being called back in later in to continue their duty. That is considered either “standby” or continuous duty.
Then he isn't on call either, so 700.19 (3) does not apply.

Also, time free from duty talks about the 3 in 17 and 1 in 7 rule, that does not cover rest periods.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Ki-ll »

If you are on reserve then the operator must provide a way for you to get 8 hours of sleep and this way must be documented in the COM.

Flight Crew Members on Reserve

700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide flight crew members on reserve, within each 24-hour period, with a rest period that meets the requirements of the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(2) Every air operator shall outline in its company operations manual a method for ensuring compliance with this section and the Commercial Air Service Standards.

720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.
(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.

Here is more from TC guidance material.

R740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

Time spent on reserve is not considered as duty time nor can it be considered as time free from duty. Therefore, when scheduling time free from duty in accordance with 700.19 and 720.19, reserve time must be considered as “counting” as duty time.

S740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

(1)When a flight crew member is on reserve, an air operator must provide the flight crew member with the opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 hours by one of the 3 methods indicated in the standard. When that flight crew member is contacted and required to report for duty during the period of reserve duty, the flight crew member is no longer considered to be on reserve but on duty, and therefore the requirements of 720.21 no longer apply. This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

(2)Anytime a flight crew member returns to reserve status following a flight duty assignment and the rest period required for that assignment, the reserve “clock” is set to zero. This means that a flight crew member who was originally on “early” reserve can be placed on “late” reserve following the flight and rest period. Should an operator wish to shift a flight crew member’s schedule from an “early” reserve to a “late” reserve (or late to early) without an intervening flight duty assignment and rest period, the flight crew member must receive 24 hours off before commencing the “late” reserve.

(3)The phrase “where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for duty…” means that the flight crew member is required to report for duty during a scheduled reserve period and/or during the subsequent rest period. Subsection (2) does not apply to a flight duty assignment which begins during the reserve period and infringes on what was a scheduled rest period if the rest period that preceded the flight duty assignment was scheduled in accordance with subparagraph (1).
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by valleyboy »

Things are slowly changing and duty days and monthly flight hours are now being watched. Today is a far cry from the past and that past was not that long ago. Up until the late 80's it was wide open with people doing 24 hour plus duty days and individuals logging up to 300 hours a month. It was greed driven both company and pilots were to blame. This type of thinking was not just aviation. The medical profession was just as bad.

We are in an age now that people are starting to get it but my friends the winds of change blow slowly. It is surprising the number of operators of there still stuck in the 80's. in their thinking. Butting heads never seems to work but a strong positive approach usually gains ground. I found that in the past it is a lot easier to deal with issues (sans union) when you earn respect for a good work ethic and at that point your decisions are usually not questioned. The regs will eventually require 2 crews to do a proper medivac schedule. It works, Orange and their predecessors have been doing it in Ontario since late 70's.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by BaldChewbacca »

Ki-ll wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:00 pm If you are on reserve then the operator must provide a way for you to get 8 hours of sleep and this way must be documented in the COM.

Flight Crew Members on Reserve

700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide flight crew members on reserve, within each 24-hour period, with a rest period that meets the requirements of the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(2) Every air operator shall outline in its company operations manual a method for ensuring compliance with this section and the Commercial Air Service Standards.

720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.
(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.

Here is more from TC guidance material.

R740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

Time spent on reserve is not considered as duty time nor can it be considered as time free from duty. Therefore, when scheduling time free from duty in accordance with 700.19 and 720.19, reserve time must be considered as “counting” as duty time.

S740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

(1)When a flight crew member is on reserve, an air operator must provide the flight crew member with the opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 hours by one of the 3 methods indicated in the standard. When that flight crew member is contacted and required to report for duty during the period of reserve duty, the flight crew member is no longer considered to be on reserve but on duty, and therefore the requirements of 720.21 no longer apply. This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

(2)Anytime a flight crew member returns to reserve status following a flight duty assignment and the rest period required for that assignment, the reserve “clock” is set to zero. This means that a flight crew member who was originally on “early” reserve can be placed on “late” reserve following the flight and rest period. Should an operator wish to shift a flight crew member’s schedule from an “early” reserve to a “late” reserve (or late to early) without an intervening flight duty assignment and rest period, the flight crew member must receive 24 hours off before commencing the “late” reserve.

(3)The phrase “where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for duty…” means that the flight crew member is required to report for duty during a scheduled reserve period and/or during the subsequent rest period. Subsection (2) does not apply to a flight duty assignment which begins during the reserve period and infringes on what was a scheduled rest period if the rest period that preceded the flight duty assignment was scheduled in accordance with subparagraph (1).
This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job
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BaldChewbacca
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by BaldChewbacca »

Next post I'll make will be about how to unionize a 703 😅
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

BaldChewbacca wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:11 am
This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job
I agree with what you are trying to do, but I would like to point out that time free from duty is not the same as "rest". The time free from duty regulations are to determine how many days "off" you need per XX days, such as 3 in 17 days or 1 in 7 days.

"rest" is not defined as "time free from duty". I do not expect you will get much success trying to pursue that avenue.

This is the part that screws us all over:
This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.
Apparently humans are like cellphones plugged into a charger. The moment the charge stops, you are good to go for XX hours.

Ridiculous but legal?
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Ki-ll »

BaldChewbacca wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:11 am
This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job
Here is the link the guidance material I referenced.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... l-3359.htm

You have a leg to stand on if the company is not consistent in providing opportunity for 8 continuous hours of sleep in any 24 hour period. Standards say how they should go about doing it. Standards also mention that they cannot shift this rest period more than a certain amount. So if you are on reserve and one day your rest is from 22:00 until 06:00 and the next day it is from 10:00 until 18:00 that’s not really what the regulations are saying. If the company is not able to comply with these provisions for 8 hours of continuous sleep then your max duty day is limited to 10 hours and your consecutive rest period is increased.
That said, a poster above mentioned that slow, steady and disciplined approach is what gets results. I doubt you are going to get anywhere with management if you print off the response of a TC inspector and throw it on the CP’a desk.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by BaldChewbacca »

digits_ wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:21 am
BaldChewbacca wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:11 am
This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job
I agree with what you are trying to do, but I would like to point out that time free from duty is not the same as "rest". The time free from duty regulations are to determine how many days "off" you need per XX days, such as 3 in 17 days or 1 in 7 days.

"rest" is not defined as "time free from duty". I do not expect you will get much success trying to pursue that avenue.

This is the part that screws us all over:
This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.
Apparently humans are like cellphones plugged into a charger. The moment the charge stops, you are good to go for XX hours.

Ridiculous but legal?
That's not the issue that I referred to in my original post, but thanks for the input. My original question was basically about them having us both on duty and on rest at the same time. Another poster gave some good answers though
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by BaldChewbacca »

Ki-ll wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:59 pm
BaldChewbacca wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:11 am

Here is the link the guidance material I referenced.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... l-3359.htm

You have a leg to stand on if the company is not consistent in providing opportunity for 8 continuous hours of sleep in any 24 hour period. Standards say how they should go about doing it. Standards also mention that they cannot shift this rest period more than a certain amount. So if you are on reserve and one day your rest is from 22:00 until 06:00 and the next day it is from 10:00 until 18:00 that’s not really what the regulations are saying. If the company is not able to comply with these provisions for 8 hours of continuous sleep then your max duty day is limited to 10 hours and your consecutive rest period is increased.
That said, a poster above mentioned that slow, steady and disciplined approach is what gets results. I doubt you are going to get anywhere with management if you print off the response of a TC inspector and throw it on the CP’a desk.
Awesome, thanks! I haven't seen this before
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TheTurdBurglar
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by TheTurdBurglar »

An email can't just be deleted from the server, that doesn't make sense. You can't mass delete emails that have been sent out. December 10th, 2018. It's still in my inbox.
BaldChewbacca wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:22 am The email in question has actually been deleted off their email server (probably because they know it's at best sleazy) and I don't have a copy saved elsewhere.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by goingnowherefast »

Just say you're fatigued and unfit for duty.
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