Minimum rest in the 703 world

[BaldChewbacca]

Thanks for the great input everyone. Some more information for clarity though...
The company has medivac, but I'm not on that aircraft. Just the charters/sched. Medivac is on call whereas we're on reserve. The medivacs are clearly told when their rest starts and we are not.
An email was sent out about a year ago now that explained that we could be called in at any time, but are considered on rest as well, basically overlapping the two cases to better suit the company. This is the reason for me making this post in the first place. Most of the responses here have not addressed the issue.
I like the idea of asking them when rest starts, but they just reference the old email stating that if we weren't called in then we were resting (which is obviously bs, but I don't know what to legally do about that, hence asking for help here)
The email in question has actually been deleted off their email server (probably because they know it's at best sleazy) and I don't have a copy saved elsewhere.
I can't find great information to help myself and the other pilots in this situation, so the best answer I've seen so far is to just call TC. Does anyone have a number to call for that, and what department or person would I actually need to speak with?

Thanks in advance everyone

[Capt. Underpants]

700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.

[digits_]

700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.

He is on reserve, not on call.

[Capt. Underpants]

700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.

He is on reserve, not on call.

What the OP described is not “reserve”. He described coming back from a flight and then being called back in later in to continue their duty. That is considered either “standby” or continuous duty.

[digits_]

700.19 (3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member’s time free from duty.

Seems some operators are not complying with this requirement.

He is on reserve, not on call.

What the OP described is not “reserve”. He described coming back from a flight and then being called back in later in to continue their duty. That is considered either “standby” or continuous duty.

Then he isn't on call either, so 700.19 (3) does not apply.

Also, time free from duty talks about the 3 in 17 and 1 in 7 rule, that does not cover rest periods.

[Ki-ll]

If you are on reserve then the operator must provide a way for you to get 8 hours of sleep and this way must be documented in the COM.

Flight Crew Members on Reserve

700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide flight crew members on reserve, within each 24-hour period, with a rest period that meets the requirements of the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(2) Every air operator shall outline in its company operations manual a method for ensuring compliance with this section and the Commercial Air Service Standards.

720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.
(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.

Here is more from TC guidance material.

R740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

Time spent on reserve is not considered as duty time nor can it be considered as time free from duty. Therefore, when scheduling time free from duty in accordance with 700.19 and 720.19, reserve time must be considered as “counting” as duty time.

S740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

(1)When a flight crew member is on reserve, an air operator must provide the flight crew member with the opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 hours by one of the 3 methods indicated in the standard. When that flight crew member is contacted and required to report for duty during the period of reserve duty, the flight crew member is no longer considered to be on reserve but on duty, and therefore the requirements of 720.21 no longer apply. This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

(2)Anytime a flight crew member returns to reserve status following a flight duty assignment and the rest period required for that assignment, the reserve “clock” is set to zero. This means that a flight crew member who was originally on “early” reserve can be placed on “late” reserve following the flight and rest period. Should an operator wish to shift a flight crew member’s schedule from an “early” reserve to a “late” reserve (or late to early) without an intervening flight duty assignment and rest period, the flight crew member must receive 24 hours off before commencing the “late” reserve.

(3)The phrase “where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for duty…” means that the flight crew member is required to report for duty during a scheduled reserve period and/or during the subsequent rest period. Subsection (2) does not apply to a flight duty assignment which begins during the reserve period and infringes on what was a scheduled rest period if the rest period that preceded the flight duty assignment was scheduled in accordance with subparagraph (1).

[valleyboy]

Things are slowly changing and duty days and monthly flight hours are now being watched. Today is a far cry from the past and that past was not that long ago. Up until the late 80's it was wide open with people doing 24 hour plus duty days and individuals logging up to 300 hours a month. It was greed driven both company and pilots were to blame. This type of thinking was not just aviation. The medical profession was just as bad.

We are in an age now that people are starting to get it but my friends the winds of change blow slowly. It is surprising the number of operators of there still stuck in the 80's. in their thinking. Butting heads never seems to work but a strong positive approach usually gains ground. I found that in the past it is a lot easier to deal with issues (sans union) when you earn respect for a good work ethic and at that point your decisions are usually not questioned. The regs will eventually require 2 crews to do a proper medivac schedule. It works, Orange and their predecessors have been doing it in Ontario since late 70's.

[BaldChewbacca]

If you are on reserve then the operator must provide a way for you to get 8 hours of sleep and this way must be documented in the COM.

Flight Crew Members on Reserve

700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide flight crew members on reserve, within each 24-hour period, with a rest period that meets the requirements of the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(2) Every air operator shall outline in its company operations manual a method for ensuring compliance with this section and the Commercial Air Service Standards.

720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.
(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.

Here is more from TC guidance material.

R740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

Time spent on reserve is not considered as duty time nor can it be considered as time free from duty. Therefore, when scheduling time free from duty in accordance with 700.19 and 720.19, reserve time must be considered as “counting” as duty time.

S740.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

(1)When a flight crew member is on reserve, an air operator must provide the flight crew member with the opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 hours by one of the 3 methods indicated in the standard. When that flight crew member is contacted and required to report for duty during the period of reserve duty, the flight crew member is no longer considered to be on reserve but on duty, and therefore the requirements of 720.21 no longer apply. This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

(2)Anytime a flight crew member returns to reserve status following a flight duty assignment and the rest period required for that assignment, the reserve “clock” is set to zero. This means that a flight crew member who was originally on “early” reserve can be placed on “late” reserve following the flight and rest period. Should an operator wish to shift a flight crew member’s schedule from an “early” reserve to a “late” reserve (or late to early) without an intervening flight duty assignment and rest period, the flight crew member must receive 24 hours off before commencing the “late” reserve.

(3)The phrase “where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for duty…” means that the flight crew member is required to report for duty during a scheduled reserve period and/or during the subsequent rest period. Subsection (2) does not apply to a flight duty assignment which begins during the reserve period and infringes on what was a scheduled rest period if the rest period that preceded the flight duty assignment was scheduled in accordance with subparagraph (1).

This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job

[BaldChewbacca]

Next post I'll make will be about how to unionize a 703

[digits_]

This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job

I agree with what you are trying to do, but I would like to point out that time free from duty is not the same as "rest". The time free from duty regulations are to determine how many days "off" you need per XX days, such as 3 in 17 days or 1 in 7 days.

"rest" is not defined as "time free from duty". I do not expect you will get much success trying to pursue that avenue.

This is the part that screws us all over:

This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

Apparently humans are like cellphones plugged into a charger. The moment the charge stops, you are good to go for XX hours.

Ridiculous but legal?

[Ki-ll]

This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job

Here is the link the guidance material I referenced.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... l-3359.htm

You have a leg to stand on if the company is not consistent in providing opportunity for 8 continuous hours of sleep in any 24 hour period. Standards say how they should go about doing it. Standards also mention that they cannot shift this rest period more than a certain amount. So if you are on reserve and one day your rest is from 22:00 until 06:00 and the next day it is from 10:00 until 18:00 that’s not really what the regulations are saying. If the company is not able to comply with these provisions for 8 hours of continuous sleep then your max duty day is limited to 10 hours and your consecutive rest period is increased.
That said, a poster above mentioned that slow, steady and disciplined approach is what gets results. I doubt you are going to get anywhere with management if you print off the response of a TC inspector and throw it on the CP’a desk.

[BaldChewbacca]

This is great, thank you. I've seen 720.21 before and that's what I was referring to in this post and what the company tries to get around. I haven't seen R740.21 or S740.21 before. Can I ask how you found them? I'm good at finding CARs, but those (I'm assuming the standards?) are less obvious to me.

So since it says right there that reserve isn't considered duty or time free from duty, it sounds like what the company is doing is illegal then and would have to give you a clear time or say you're still on duty. I'll give it a little bit of time, but I'll figure out how to speak with someone at transport to see what can be done. Because speaking to management about this sort of thing (even with proof like this) will only get us yelled at and threats about losing our job

I agree with what you are trying to do, but I would like to point out that time free from duty is not the same as "rest". The time free from duty regulations are to determine how many days "off" you need per XX days, such as 3 in 17 days or 1 in 7 days.

"rest" is not defined as "time free from duty". I do not expect you will get much success trying to pursue that avenue.

This is the part that screws us all over:

This means that at anytime during the reserve period, a flight crew member can be required to start a 14 hour duty period (or longer depending on the applicability of those sections of 700.16 and 720.16 which permit extended flight duty times). A flight crew member therefore must remain rested while on reserve such that they are able to cope with a full duty day if called.

Apparently humans are like cellphones plugged into a charger. The moment the charge stops, you are good to go for XX hours.

Ridiculous but legal?

That's not the issue that I referred to in my original post, but thanks for the input. My original question was basically about them having us both on duty and on rest at the same time. Another poster gave some good answers though

[BaldChewbacca]

Here is the link the guidance material I referenced.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... l-3359.htm

You have a leg to stand on if the company is not consistent in providing opportunity for 8 continuous hours of sleep in any 24 hour period. Standards say how they should go about doing it. Standards also mention that they cannot shift this rest period more than a certain amount. So if you are on reserve and one day your rest is from 22:00 until 06:00 and the next day it is from 10:00 until 18:00 that’s not really what the regulations are saying. If the company is not able to comply with these provisions for 8 hours of continuous sleep then your max duty day is limited to 10 hours and your consecutive rest period is increased.
That said, a poster above mentioned that slow, steady and disciplined approach is what gets results. I doubt you are going to get anywhere with management if you print off the response of a TC inspector and throw it on the CP’a desk.

Awesome, thanks! I haven't seen this before

[TheTurdBurglar]

An email can't just be deleted from the server, that doesn't make sense. You can't mass delete emails that have been sent out. December 10th, 2018. It's still in my inbox.

The email in question has actually been deleted off their email server (probably because they know it's at best sleazy) and I don't have a copy saved elsewhere.

[goingnowherefast]

Just say you're fatigued and unfit for duty.

[mmm..bacon]

Pssssst chhhk.....glug glug glug.. “But you said I was off duty...”

[smooth]

Best way is to leave those job

[NotDirty!]

This sounds an awful lot like a company that I used to work for. It was, however very rare for something like this to happen, maybe once or twice a year, company wide (~14 airplanes). It was always a case of another machine going mechanical in the middle of nowhere, and the previously released crew got called back in to operate the rescue mission. Nobody liked doing it, but nobody really complained because they hoped that someone else would do the same for them if they were the ones broke down in ZKE!

If I’m wrong, and this is being done on a daily basis, then you have a legitimate gripe! But if it is as rare as I remember it, and you are fit to fly when they call you, please help your fellow pilots out! Or if you are truly too fatigued to accept the trip, tell crew sched, and let them find another pilot to draft, or come up with an alternative plan.

[TheTurdBurglar]

To supplement what some people are saying, the email OP is referring to states the following:

"When does your rest period start:
1. 22:00 local or
2. 10 hours prior to your next duty period (they assign flights the day prior) or
3. When you clear the base"

 The email then goes on to emphasize that the rest period is not a designated event for flight crew members on-reserve in the same way that it is for those on-call (medevac) and explains you can clear after a 6 hour day and be called 10 hours later for a flight (the company's min rest period) or again an hour after your 6 day period and fly for another 7-8 hours, until the 15th hour after your first call.

It seems to me the question here is: Is the beginning of rest period a designated event for an on-reserve pilot? If not, is the company doing anything illegal by operating as such, or is it just a less-than-favourable position to be in as a pilot, if it's done on the regular?

I agree with most people: get a solid answer when you clear. "Is my rest period beginning?" Or, if you don't like it, move on to somewhere else.

[digits_]

This sounds an awful lot like a company that I used to work for. It was, however very rare for something like this to happen, maybe once or twice a year, company wide (~14 airplanes). It was always a case of another machine going mechanical in the middle of nowhere, and the previously released crew got called back in to operate the rescue mission. Nobody liked doing it, but nobody really complained because they hoped that someone else would do the same for them if they were the ones broke down in ZKE!

If I’m wrong, and this is being done on a daily basis, then you have a legitimate gripe! But if it is as rare as I remember it, and you are fit to fly when they call you, please help your fellow pilots out! Or if you are truly too fatigued to accept the trip, tell crew sched, and let them find another pilot to draft, or come up with an alternative plan.

His gripe is that he thinks it is illegal. If that is the case, it is a problem even if it only happens once a year.

If it is legal, it is a matter of asking yourself if you are compensated enough to deal with such a schedule.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being a nice guy or helping pilots out. Trying to be a nice guy and flying when you shouldn't has killed more people than being a d*ck and refusing a trip ever will.