Operating different machines.

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C.W.E.
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Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:06 pm

What requires the most concentration and accuracy to operate different machines.

If one compares the concentration to keep a transport truck or a bus in the driving lane in close proximity with other vehicles compared to the concentration and accuracy needed to fly an airplane with the spatial separation aircraft have which is more difficult?

And of course there is the autopilot in airplanes that are not available in trucks and busses.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Gannet167 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:13 pm

Which airplane? Operated in what environment? Trying to accomplish what with the airplane?
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Aeroncachump » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:20 pm

Ever sat back and watched a really experienced excavator, or grader operator do their jobs? It's poetry.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by North Shore » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:26 pm

Why should we care what the cognitive demands are (or aren't) of driving a truck or bus? We're pilots. If we want to drive a big vehicle, then quit flying and go and do so; conversely, quit driving a bus, and take some flying lessons. :roll:
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by ayseven » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:32 pm

Well, i race formula cars. It is all planning. There are always surprises, but it is remarkably similar, but a lot more intense than driving on the road or flying. Different, but you need your reflexes more often than a big vehicle or airplane. Driving a full on race car is not hard, but driving it fast is a whole other thing. You can not just fly around the track. There is a race plan, a test session plan and that is broken down to segments for every corner. There is not really a comparison in that sense. It is harder physically than flying for sure. You need your wits about you in the same way, if that makes sense, but obviously, if things are not going well, you can just pit or pull over. The accidents are normally not fatal, which is nice. I have been scared way more in racing. If you get scared in flying, you keep it to yourself. Never driven a big truck but imagine it is a challenge.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:50 pm

Why should we care what the cognitive demands are (or aren't) of driving a truck or bus? We're pilots. If we want to drive a big vehicle, then quit flying and go and do so; conversely, quit driving a bus, and take some flying lessons.
My post was made because a lot of my career was seasonal flying, Aerial application, Fire suppression and airshow flying which by the nature of the job was seasonal.

During the off flying part of the year I drove transport trucks to earn enough money to support my family.

I posted this because I thought it might be an interesting subject, however I may have failed to take into consideration this is a flying forum and thus not the best place to discuss any other occupation....

Oh well at least I was a part time pilot, which should give me some acceptance here among real pilots. :mrgreen:
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:55 pm

Having done both I would say the concentration used during an IMC approach (no autopilot) is roughly the same as switching lanes down a 5 lane across highway during heavy traffic in a semi. Accordingly driving on cruise down the interstate for hours at a time pretty much the same as the cruise portion without an autopilot.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:57 pm

Having done both I would say the concentration used during an IMC approach (no autopilot) is roughly the same as switching lanes down a 5 lane across highway during heavy traffic in a semi. Accordingly driving on cruise down the interstate for hours at a time pretty much the same as the cruise portion without an autopilot.
Excellent comparison.

That makes me feel better, a positive response. :D :D :D
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:03 pm

Currently the approach feels harder to me. Probably because I'm 250 hrs into charter flying vs 7 years at 600,000 miles in a semi. Or Maybe it's cause only that captain has the Hsi/CDI on his side makes the scan kinda lopsided lol.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:03 pm

Ever sat back and watched a really experienced excavator, or grader operator do their jobs? It's poetry.
This is the one! Decision making skills aside, for simple hands and feet, backhoe/excavator is it. For the first few hundred hours on my excavator, I would focus on making my hands move levers, which in turn moved the bucket. I moved earth. After a thousand some hours on my excavator, I detached my brain one day while trenching. I watched the bucket moving nicely, exactly where I wanted it to go. In the middle of this adequate machine control, I looked at my hands. They were moving the levers here and there, and I realized that my brain had no idea, and no care what my hands were doing, my brain was moving the bucket, my hands were just in the control path.

Next to excavator would be hand wheeling a curved cut on a manual milling machine.

Allow your brain to operate the machine, with your hands in the control path, focus less on your brain moving your hands on the controls.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by photofly » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:06 pm

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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by corethatthermal » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:47 pm

They were moving the levers here and there, and I realized that my brain had no idea, and no care what my hands were doing, my brain was moving the bucket, my hands were just in the control path.
at that point. you would be able to do something else as well lets call it multi-tasking, however the professionals say there is no such thing !
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by valleyboy » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:00 pm

truck or bus? We're pilots.
I drove haul truck pulling wood and I'll tell ya the stress level was higher on the winter Bush roads than driving any aeroplane.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:07 pm

I drove haul truck pulling wood and I'll tell ya the stress level was higher on the winter Bush roads than driving any aeroplane.
Exactly, and that is why I started this subject.

There used to be a saying.

Flying is hours and hours of pure boredom, with the odd moment of stark terror. :mrgreen:
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:12 am

valleyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:00 pm
truck or bus? We're pilots.
I drove haul truck pulling wood and I'll tell ya the stress level was higher on the winter Bush roads than driving any aeroplane.
Oof yeah absolutely. Never did logs. Did flat deck through northern Ontario for a bit though. That was a rough winter.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Zaibatsu » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:12 am

Comparing truck drivers to pilots is like comparing a goalie to a zamboni driver.

Yeah it’s tough to figure out how to drive the zamboni, to control the fluid and the edgers or whatever. How to not run into the boards and make that oval pattern. Even harder is choreographed Zamboni driving so you don’t wind up hitting the other Zamboni or wasting time going over what the other guy already did. The Zamboni driver is always doing something like the truck driver is, but it isn’t anything that requires a high amount of skill or thinking.

The goalie. If he’s got a good team all he does is stand there. Cut the angle off a bit when the other team enters the zone. Touch the puck if they don’t want an icing call. But when they take a shot on net it’s years worth of training and practice and skill that gives him the glove save. That’s a pilot. Lots of boredom. But you have to be alert and ready for anything at all times and not everyone can just gear up and do it.

That’s why there are a lot more pilots who are truck drivers than truck drivers who are pilots.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:17 am

If being a pilot is so difficult and takes so much intelligence to perform the task why is there no education requirements to become a pilot?

The only requirement is having enough money to get the licenses.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by digits_ » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:20 am

Zaibatsu wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:12 am
Comparing truck drivers to pilots is like comparing a goalie to a zamboni driver.

Yeah it’s tough to figure out how to drive the zamboni, to control the fluid and the edgers or whatever. How to not run into the boards and make that oval pattern. Even harder is choreographed Zamboni driving so you don’t wind up hitting the other Zamboni or wasting time going over what the other guy already did. The Zamboni driver is always doing something like the truck driver is, but it isn’t anything that requires a high amount of skill or thinking.

The goalie. If he’s got a good team all he does is stand there. Cut the angle off a bit when the other team enters the zone. Touch the puck if they don’t want an icing call. But when they take a shot on net it’s years worth of training and practice and skill that gives him the glove save. That’s a pilot. Lots of boredom. But you have to be alert and ready for anything at all times and not everyone can just gear up and do it.

That’s why there are a lot more pilots who are truck drivers than truck drivers who are pilots.
I have no idea if the goalie is supposed to be the pilot or the truck driver in your analogy.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by 5x5 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:44 am

I realize that difficulty of operation doesn't directly relate to accidents/death as a result but certainly there is a somewhat causational link. Anyway, that's the way my thoughts went as it seems to me that any difficult activity with the risk of injury is that much more so if death is possible. Here's a report that indicates (without knowing the criteria for the study) flying is worse that way than trucking.

This chart is from the linked article (which doesn't add any detail on the chart criteria).
Accident rates.png
Accident rates.png (104.86 KiB) Viewed 1178 times
https://cdllife.com/2018/record-high-nu ... -job-2017/
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:53 am

There is the factor of physics 5X5, the chance of an accident being fatal is way higher in an airplane than in a truck generally speaking due to velocity.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by 5x5 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:38 am

Completely agree Chuck. However, I find it hard to separate all the different facets that are involved in this kind of comparison and it just seemed that the ultimate worse outcome of poor operation was a piece of the overall picture.

I guess if I was talking basic, day-to-day operations then trucks might win out due to the need to moderate operations continuously each and every day to take into account the constrained environment - the road system and the unpredictability of other vehicles in very close proximity. Basic aircraft operation for the most part is very straight forward and typically isn't impacted much by the other traffic in the system.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Bede » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:43 am

What a stupid thread.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Capt. Underpants » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:09 am

Bede wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:43 am
What a stupid thread.
Feel free to move on to a different thread.

I think it’s interesting, but I work with pilots who do seasonal work like Chuck did. Several of them operate heavy equipment in the off season.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:35 am

Why do you think it is stupid Bede?
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Bede » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:50 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:35 am
Why do you think it is stupid Bede?
Because you post similar threads/comments every few years. And because you're comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying- what's harder being a doctor or scientist? Or, what needs more school-a real estate lawyer or real estate agent? Society doesn't value work on how technically difficult the occupation is.

I've used heavy equipment. I find it harder than flying a plane. But that's because I have much more experience in planes. I find backhoe work easy enough, but back blading is near impossible for me- I don't have the eye for it- or the judgment to raise the blade when I hit a ridge. I also find riding a horse more difficult than flying a plane.

The difference is if I screw up in a plane lots of people die. If I screw up in an excavator, I pull up a cable (which unfortunately I have done).
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