Operating different machines.

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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by 5x5 »

Completely agree .. However, I find it hard to separate all the different facets that are involved in this kind of comparison and it just seemed that the ultimate worse outcome of poor operation was a piece of the overall picture.

I guess if I was talking basic, day-to-day operations then trucks might win out due to the need to moderate operations continuously each and every day to take into account the constrained environment - the road system and the unpredictability of other vehicles in very close proximity. Basic aircraft operation for the most part is very straight forward and typically isn't impacted much by the other traffic in the system.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Bede »

What a stupid thread.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Bede wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:43 am What a stupid thread.
Feel free to move on to a different thread.

I think it’s interesting, but I work with pilots who do seasonal work like . did. Several of them operate heavy equipment in the off season.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

Why do you think it is stupid Bede?
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Bede »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:35 am Why do you think it is stupid Bede?
Because you post similar threads/comments every few years. And because you're comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying- what's harder being a doctor or scientist? Or, what needs more school-a real estate lawyer or real estate agent? Society doesn't value work on how technically difficult the occupation is.

I've used heavy equipment. I find it harder than flying a plane. But that's because I have much more experience in planes. I find backhoe work easy enough, but back blading is near impossible for me- I don't have the eye for it- or the judgment to raise the blade when I hit a ridge. I also find riding a horse more difficult than flying a plane.

The difference is if I screw up in a plane lots of people die. If I screw up in an excavator, I pull up a cable (which unfortunately I have done).
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

Because you post similar threads/comments every few years. And because you're comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying- what's harder being a doctor or scientist? Or, what needs more school-a real estate lawyer or real estate agent? Society doesn't value work on how technically difficult the occupation is.
The difference is if I screw up in a plane lots of people die. If I screw up in an excavator, I pull up a cable (which unfortunately I have done).
Outside of being in control of a vehicle that can kill hundreds of people if you crash it what else makes flying different from other occupations?

For sure it is not the qualifications to become a pilot because the qualifications are low enough that virtually anyone who can read and write and learn how to operate a machine can be a pilot.

Or am I way out to lunch in my opinion?
Because you post similar threads/comments every few years.
True.

However many new people join this forum as time passes and with lots of time on my hands now that I am retired I gravitate to a flying forum as flying was my occupation for over half a century.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by jakeandelwood »

Many truck driving jobs are more than just driving the truck, just wrapping your head around double clutching an 18 speed can be hard enough for new drivers. The other half of the job starts when you get to your destination if it's a specialty truck. More learning, it's not just driving the truck.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by simplicity »

I got my class 1 when I was 20. It was not hard. Took a week and cost $2500. Had a job offer 3 days after. Had I stuck with it, I would have made over 70k doing Monday to Friday city driving.

On the other hand, it took two years of flight training, $70,000 and multiple exams and practical tests to get a pilots license. Only to be turned down dozens of times for a job. Living in my car for months and finally making $25,000 a year. A decade later I'm making $56k at Air Canada. Hooray, I've "made it."

Anyone that compares flying to driving a truck is either senile, a moron or just naive.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

Anyone that compares flying to driving a truck is either senile, a moron or just naive.
Considering I started this topic am I senile, a moron or just naive?
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by rigpiggy »

Awwww . your not senile, just obtuse :goodman:
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

Or so bored that I fantasise.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by iflyforpie »

jakeandelwood wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:53 am Many truck driving jobs are more than just driving the truck, just wrapping your head around double clutching an 18 speed can be hard enough for new drivers. The other half of the job starts when you get to your destination if it's a specialty truck. More learning, it's not just driving the truck.
Lots of modern trucks have synchronized gearboxes and don’t even need the clutch to shift after you’ve let off the throttle. The clutch is only for stopping and starting. Sure single or double clutching is easier on synchros, but harder on a throw out bearing.

I’d say the specialty part occurs in aviation, too. Not everything flown is SLF in and out of a terminal.

I think the toughest thing about trucking would be the fatigue. The autopilot is a definite reprieve. Trucking companies seem to be looking for dream teams—ideally a husband and wife (or whatever goes these days) who will have a romanticized experience of seeing the country side for free... but realities being they’ll be driving on opposite sides of the clock while someone sleeps in the back to make money for the man or amortize their lease or purchase as owner/operators.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by valleyboy »

Lots of modern trucks have synchronized gearboxes and don’t even need the clutch to shift after you’ve let off the thrott
That's called an automatic transmission. None of the big rigs have syncros. Floating gears is a technique but many don't condone this and double clutching is recommended. Automatics are gaining a foothold but "old timers" don't like them as much. 18 and 13 speed is likely the 2 most popular but there are still guys out there using 5 and 4's

I know personally and being a farm boy if I hadn't gone flying I would be operating heavy equipment of some kind, even if it were a tractor pulling a manure spreader :smt040
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

Automatics are gaining a foothold but "old timers" don't like them as much. 18 and 13 speed is likely the 2 most popular but there are still guys out there using 5 and 4's
Aahhh yes, I spent some years driving the Mack Thermodyne with the 5 and four.

Great trucks.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by iflyforpie »

valleyboy wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:02 pm
Lots of modern trucks have synchronized gearboxes and don’t even need the clutch to shift after you’ve let off the thrott
That's called an automatic transmission. None of the big rigs have syncros. Floating gears is a technique but many don't condone this and double clutching is recommended. Automatics are gaining a foothold but "old timers" don't like them as much. 18 and 13 speed is likely the 2 most popular but there are still guys out there using 5 and 4's

I know personally and being a farm boy if I hadn't gone flying I would be operating heavy equipment of some kind, even if it were a tractor pulling a manure spreader :smt040
My brother in law’s Peterbilt is as big as it gets with an 18 speed. If it was “floating gears” there was nothing special about it.

The hardest thing for me was selecting high range, but only because I was being taught how to drive it as I was driving it and couldn’t find the range selector. I paid my brother in law back for that a few months later getting him to fly a plane. I think I did better than he did. ;)
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Meatservo »

Cat Driver, I want to start by apologizing for my comment about the hollowed-out watermelon. I was drinking after work (flying planes) and it seemed like a funny comment to make at the time.

I've been thinking about your question, and I believe the truth can be found by breaking things down into discrete actions that are representative of the various tasks at hand. In order to be completely objective of course one has to account for what particular oeuvre one is talking about, so I'll try to be clear as to which vintage of machine or time in history I'm referencing.

1: "Getting there"

PLANE: finding heading by referencing the nautical almanac to find the greenwich hour angle of Aries, converting to local hour angle (presuming you've been careful and you know your longitude), using the chart to correct for sidereal hour angle to find local hour angle of the star you've managed to spot, using astrocompass to sight the star and then set your gyro, mark that on the chart and continue dead-reckoning until you pick up the beacon more or less where you were hoping it would be

TRUCK: Stay on right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

2: "Docking"

PLANE: sail an Otter in floats into its spot between two other Otters on a busy dock in gusty wind with no swamper

TRUCK: Back your trailer into the loading port on the side of Wal-Mart "

WHICH IS HARDER: DRAW


3:"STEERING"

PLANE: Co-ordinate roll, pitch and yaw to maintain altitude, speed and course using instruments without being able to see out the window

TRUCK: Stay in right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

4: "NOT PLOUGHING INTO STUFF"

PLANE: flying through the air

TRUCK: rolling along the ground

WHICH IS HARDER: TRUCK

5: "Mental Math"

PLANE: magnetic variation, zulu time, descent angle, depressurization rates, rate of turn, VHF reception distance, available hold times, cold weather corrections, holdover times, tide charts

TRUCK: what time the all-night Denny's closes

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

6) "Staying Fit"

PLANE: technical exam every year, performance test including emergency scenarios requiring memorized procedures every six months

TRUCK: Whatever.

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

7) "Parking"

PLANE: Beach, Esker, Field, Rocks, River, Snow, Slush, Tundra...

TRUCK: WAL-Mart

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE



Now I could be a dick and go on and on and on, but I truly believe that truck-driving is honourable, honest work and I wouldn't normally denigrate it like Cat Driver constantly does by comparing it to aeroplane flying. I also believe that modern 705 copilots are dissipated, whiney, underachieving, pampered little pricks who would be too timorous to even attempt driving anything with a manual transmission, let alone without an FMS and autopilot. So, I'm not actually sure where I stand on this issue.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C-GGGQ »

Meatservo wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:59 pm Cat Driver, I want to start by apologizing for my comment about the hollowed-out watermelon. I was drinking after work (flying planes) and it seemed like a funny comment to make at the time.

I've been thinking about your question, and I believe the truth can be found by breaking things down into discrete actions that are representative of the various tasks at hand. In order to be completely objective of course one has to account for what particular oeuvre one is talking about, so I'll try to be clear as to which vintage of machine or time in history I'm referencing.

1: "Getting there"

PLANE: finding heading by referencing the nautical almanac to find the greenwich hour angle of Aries, converting to local hour angle (presuming you've been careful and you know your longitude), using the chart to correct for sidereal hour angle to find local hour angle of the star you've managed to spot, using astrocompass to sight the star and then set your gyro, mark that on the chart and continue dead-reckoning until you pick up the beacon more or less where you were hoping it would be

TRUCK: Stay on right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE
Plane: been flying 15 years never even seen an astronaut compass in real life. Gps has been a reliable thing that whole time

Truck: dedicated truck Gps's with proper routes and height clearances are getting better but remain iffy to this day. Grab your motor carriers road atlas. Research state by state and province by province specific weight limits, road restrictions spring road restrictions height restrictions truck routes, toll routes, King pin to wheel distance limits.

3:"STEERING"

PLANE: Co-ordinate roll, pitch and yaw to maintain altitude, speed and course using instruments without being able to see out the window

TRUCK: Stay in right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE
75 foot vehicle, blocking the inside lane so drivers don't get in between you and the corner, j hook turns etc.
5: "Mental Math"

PLANE: magnetic variation, zulu time, descent angle, depressurization rates, rate of turn, VHF reception distance, available hold times, cold weather corrections, holdover times, tide charts

TRUCK: what time the all-night Denny's closes

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE
Hours of service, gear ratios for down hill, weight and balance for axle group weights, rush hour, knowing the cities and stops so you know if you show up at 4,5,6,7pm how if you'll even get a parking spot, Hazmat, load securement (bars, straps, chains. How many, what grade, dunnage)
6) "Staying Fit"

PLANE: technical exam every year, performance test including emergency scenarios requiring memorized procedures every six months

TRUCK: Whatever.

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE
Yearly company mandated recurrent training in summer ops, winter ops, driving conditions, fatigue,
7) "Parking"

PLANE: Beach, Esker, Field, Rocks, River, Snow, Slush, Tundra...

TRUCK: WAL-Mart

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE
Plane: parking stand/ jet bridge guided in by Marshallese

Truck: blind side backing into a narrow spot designed when trailers were 40ft not 53

Now I could be a dick and go on and on and on, but I truly believe that truck-driving is honourable, honest work and I wouldn't normally denigrate it like Cat Driver constantly does by comparing it to aeroplane flying. I also believe that modern 705 copilots are dissipated, whiney, underachieving, pampered little pricks who would be too timorous to even attempt driving anything with a manual transmission, let alone without an FMS and autopilot. So, I'm not actually sure where I stand on this issue.
Yes you can cherry pick off strip bush flying that most people never do. However especially 703 charter ops I find nearly identical in the type of work I do between the truck and the plane. Planes just faster and I don't have to sleep in it.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Meatservo »

BALLS, GGGQ. You are cherry-picking just as outrageously as anyone else. Weight limits? Load restrictions? Road atlas? 75 foot vehicle? Hazmat? Load security? Winter ops? Fatigue? Dunnage?

Come on. I was talking about "differences", not "Things That Are Exactly The Same".

So what if you don't know any astro stuff. Your ignorance of your trade is your issue, not mine.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by simplicity »

Meatservo wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:58 pm BALLS, GGGQ. You are cherry-picking just as outrageously as anyone else. Weight limits? Load restrictions? Road atlas? 75 foot vehicle? Hazmat? Load security? Winter ops? Fatigue? Dunnage?

Come on. I was talking about "differences", not "Things That Are Exactly The Same".

So what if you don't know any astro stuff. Your ignorance of your trade is your issue, not mine.
No offense but not knowing anything about star charts and astro compasses doesn't mean you don't know your trade.

I've never once even remotely had a reason to learn or know this. From 703 flying to now overseas flying. Care to share where they store the compass on the 787?
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

No offense but not knowing anything about star charts and astro compasses doesn't mean you don't know your trade.
44 years ago celestial navigation was still used to navigate by, most of you have probably read this story I wrote about it but some of you may not ave so I here it is again for those of you who may wish to read it. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Arcturus, the Missing Hours and Fate

A short story by . .. In his dealings with fate the hunter,
. recalls an intuitive decision that could have been his last.


Finally after over a week of just plain tough flying weather the stars came out and we would depart Johnston Point on Banks Island for what should be an easy flight. This flight would turn out to be remembered forever as one of the closest calls I have ever had in almost fifty years of flying.
The year was 1975, late February. We were flying supplies to a cat train that was shooting seismic lines for oil exploration on Banks Island in the high Arctic. Johnson Point, an oil exploration base camp with a paved runway, was the main airport for supplying the western Arctic. In these very high latitudes winter means total darkness for months and navigating in that very hostile environment is difficult at the best of times.
We had just gotten our first twin otter equipped with a new navigation aid called Global Navigation System. G.N.S. was based on very low power radio transmitters located in various parts of the world. In order for the computer to be able to navigate it had to acquire at least three G.N.S. transmitters. Latitude and longitude had to be entered, for both our departure and destination points, in the computer. This entry was done with little wheels to select the numbers and other information for each trip. A further limiting factor with G.N.S. was that we had to have accurate positions for the computer to navigate to wherever we set it.
Cat trains are always on the move, consequently requiring a navigator with each train to take celestial shots whenever he could to accurately keep track of their new location. Once the G.N.S. stations were acquired and the trip was set up it was so accurate we could fly several hundred miles and then return to our parking ramp at the airport without a hitch. To us G.N.S. was like having died and gone to heaven. Being able to navigate so accurately in the high Arctic, where the magnetic compass always points strait down, was a “god send”.
This particular trip to the seismic train was uneventful with no cloud cover at all just the stars from horizon to horizon. After the last week of flying all our trips from takeoff to landing on solid instruments while relying on two radar altimeters one in front of each pilot for our landing decision height this one had been easy. The only visibility restriction we had was the complete loss of forward visibility in the snow which blew up when we went into reverse to stop on the short runway, which had been ploughed for us, on the ice. Sometimes these strips were not much over 1000 feet long due to the location of the cat train at that time. Therefore, reverse was a necessity to stop before we ran off the landing strip.
With clear weather and no rush to get back to Johnson Point we went to the cookhouse, had a leisurely meal, listened to the tape recorder playing music such as North to Alaska, which we of course changed to South to Alaska. Finally, off to the airplane we went where we decided to hell with waiting to reset the G.N.S. Instead, with such a clear night, we would fly back to home base using the astro compass. After lighting up the two P.T.6’s we taxied back to the runway and lined up with the flare pots. We got the almanac out and shot Arcturus. It is one of the easiest stars to identify and shoot due to its position and brightness in the sky. Arcturus is the first bright star out from the handle of the Big Dipper.
We read our heading on the astro compass, set our direction indicators (gyros) and off we went for Johnston Point. Once leveled off in cruise there was nothing but the sound of the engines and the big canopy of stars that ended in a faint white blur which was the endless Arctic snow just barely visible below us in the faint starlight.
Sitting in the warm cockpit with only the sound of those dependable turbine engines and no sense of movement through the dark night I slowly became aware that something was wrong but could not quite figure out what it was. I remember asking the co-pilot to see if Johnson Point was showing up on the A.D.F. After a few minutes he had no luck, now I came wide awake and said, “This doesn’t look right."
Once more I gave him the time and he read the almanac to set the astro compass. Again there was no change in our D.I. settings. Suddenly a possibility came to me and I asked him what time he had. When he read his watch we both knew we were in trouble as there was almost three hours difference between our watches. I will never forget the feeling of real fear when I realized that we had departed the cat train with a D.I. setting that was almost forty-five degrees in error.
The realization of just how dire our position was made it very difficult for me to convert the position of the stars versus what I figured they should look like. Now there was no doubt, in my mind, that we were far off our track for Johnston Point; so far in fact I knew we might never be found. Time was now critical. We had to decide which watch was right. Making a quick position guess based on nothing but the time we had flown on this heading and instinct we turned ninety degrees to the right starting a slow cruise climb for better fuel burn.
In this part of the high Arctic, at night, there is absolutely nothing but endless white, to try to recognize any feature below you is hopeless. Both of us were really worried, and the questions and doubts started. Whose watch was set wrong? Had we turned the right way? Why had we not noted the runway heading after landing? Why had we not written the heading down so as to be able to confirm our star shot? Why did we not check both of our watches, especially since the airplane clock did not work in these temperatures? Radio reception was so poor we could not raise anyone on H.F. or V.H.F. Then, all of a sudden, the A.D.F. came alive and there was the Johnston Point N.D.B. strait ahead. Soon we could see the lights of our destination on the horizon.
For some time I had been quite concerned about our fuel state. Seeing the lights in the distance was just too good to be true. However, to be on the safe side we stayed at eleven thousand until we could definitely make the airport. Distances can be so deceiving at night in the high Arctic. Descending through one thousand feet the low fuel light came on telling us we had eleven minutes of fuel left in the front tank. I really don’t remember how much fuel remained in the rear tank.
Of course, how much fuel there was in the rear tank is now a mute point. It really doesn’t matter, because like in Earnest Gann’s great book “Fate is the Hunter”, that night so many years ago the hunter did not find my young co-pilot, whose name I cannot even recall, and me. Had we turned left instead of right we would have been so far off course it is possible no one would have ever found the airplane or us in those millions of square miles of ice and snow. After landing and going into the ATCO Huts, that were our accommodations, we finally found out it was my watch that was wrong.
To this day I do not really know why I chose to make the decision it was my watch; even stranger the damn thing worked just fine after what should have been an uneventful trip. That just leaves fate as the best explanation for my decision to turn right that night. Isn’t it strange how words like Arcturus, Missing Hours and Fate can have such chilling meaning when flying airplanes?
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