Operating different machines.

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C.W.E.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:15 pm

C.W.E.:
I googled you and it appears that your 50 years of flying has been mostly fire fighting, flying Catalina's, etc. Is that correct? In other words, most of your flying has been VFR type flying.
My flying time has been split between VFR and IFR and my fire fighting time was about fifteen years of the over fifty I flew.
I am curious, have you ever held an instrument rating?
I received my first instrument rating in the early 1960's ( as a point of interest the first thing we had to do at the start of our IFR flight test was be able to read Morse code identifiers as diled up by the inspector } and held it until I retired in 2005.
Have you flown into high density airports?
Yes in many different countries, my first real high density airport was nightly courrier flights into Chicago's O'Hare airport in a Beech 18 single pilot in the sixtes.
Have you flown sophisticated airline type aircraft? Have you worked in an SOP environment, a multi-pilot crew environment?
Well as to multi crew environment I started flying for Austin Airways in 1968 and then flew for Mobil Oil in 1970, their SOP's were first class. Also I have over five thousand hours flying DC3's mostly in the arctic and far north and for sure a lot of that time was IFR and for sure it was not single pilot.

As to sophisticated aircraft ( I am not sure exactly what you consider sophisticated. ) However I guess the closest I came to flying one as a full time job it was flying a corporate 690B Turbo Commander which was my favourite airplane performance wise.

I never flew for an airline simply because that type of flying did not really interest me even though the pay can be very good in that segment of aviation. I made a reasonable pay in speciality flying ( Ag. Flying both fixed and rotary wing / Fire Suppression/ and Flying in the air show circuit in Europe flying the Pitts S2B and the Super Decathalon. Those three types of flying took up 36 years of my career and I was seldom bored with the flying, :)

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from with your disdain for professional airline pilots and those with anything greater than a high school education.
Why do you feel I have disdain for professional airline pilots?

As to anyone with greater than high school education what makes you feel I have disdain for them?

All I have said is one does not need greater than high school to be able to safely and skillfully fly any airplane including an airline category airplane.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:59 pm

Hmmm. Reading this thread.

My brother drives heavy double trailers down the 401, day and night. Always jammed with traffic. Always idiots, construction zones, blizzard conditions at times.

I'm hearing comments this is supposed to be easy. From talking to him, I think not.

To me that seems more stressful than piloting a multi crew, multi engine turbine in cruise with a capable autopilot. My brother can't ever let his guard down for a second.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:12 pm

Rookie, why do so many people here think I am anti education just because it is my opinion flying for a living is not exactly up there with brain surgery?

Furthermore once one can read and write they can self educate and I feel I did fairly well in that endeavour.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by shimmydampner » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:10 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:59 pm
Hmmm. Reading this thread.

My brother drives heavy double trailers down the 401, day and night. Always jammed with traffic. Always idiots, construction zones, blizzard conditions at times.

I'm hearing comments this is supposed to be easy. From talking to him, I think not.

To me that seems more stressful than piloting a multi crew, multi engine turbine in cruise with a capable autopilot. My brother can't ever let his guard down for a second.
What does this conversation have to do with stress? Where did anyone say that driving truck is easy? Some people are certainly putting forth the notion that the professional flying of airplanes is an objectively easy task requiring no education that could basically be done by anyone. I strongly disagree with those assertions.
If it's anecdotal arguments you want to make, we can all come up with lots just by filling in the blanks on your opener and closer:
I fly airplanes in the north, day and night. Always at max gross. Always with very inexperienced copilots, no infrastructure, blizzard conditions at times.
To me that seems more stressful than driving a new modern truck down a long straight stretch of open road. When my copilot has control, I can't ever let my guard down for a second.

I think part of what bothers me about this is that it strikes me as an effort to cheapen or downplay the burden of responsibility that a Pilot in Command must bear. Which is why it's so odd to see highly experienced, former professionals take this position. I see it all the time in young pilots who have never really been a Pilot in Command before and think its no big deal until they actually get in the left seat and the reality sets in that the weight of all decisions and outcomes rests on their shoulders. (Maybe all that bullshit PICUS and purchased PIC wasn't really enough to prepare them for what it really means to be a Captain.) That level of responsibility really starts to hit home when you start throwing in multiple crew members, large numbers of passengers, multi million dollar airframes and significant company fiscal implications, just to name a few. On any given airline flight, hundreds if not thousands of people have, to varying degrees ranging from monetary to livelihood to life, a stake in that flight going perfectly uneventfully, and they are all counting on one person to ultimately deliver on that. Just because uneventful is the goal, and uneventful seems easy, doesn't mean it is. I think anyone who would say that that responsibility is less than keeping a rig between the lines and at a safe speed, isn't fit to take on that responsibility.
And to be clear, I'm not downplaying driving a truck. I'm not saying that it's not stressful or difficult or devoid of responsibility. I just don't believe that it is the same on any level, as being a truly professional aviator.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by shimmydampner » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:15 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:12 pm
Rookie, why do so many people here think I am anti education just because it is my opinion flying for a living is not exactly up there with brain surgery?
Well ., there you go again being disingenuous. You did not originally say flying is not exactly up there with brain surgery. You did however imply that it's not exactly up there with driving a truck. But you knew that. After all, not nearly as many people would get wound up if your original point was a brain surgery comparison.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Squaretail » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:30 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:59 pm
Hmmm. Reading this thread.

My brother drives heavy double trailers down the 401, day and night. Always jammed with traffic. Always idiots, construction zones, blizzard conditions at times.

I'm hearing comments this is supposed to be easy. From talking to him, I think not.

To me that seems more stressful than piloting a multi crew, multi engine turbine in cruise with a capable autopilot. My brother can't ever let his guard down for a second.
Not to single your example out Rookie, but its similar to most in this thread where it puts the worst case of one against the best case of the other.

I've done both jobs for work. I currently fly airplanes for work. Which is "harder" depends on one's perspective and what the job of "driver" or "pilot" actually includes in any particular instance. It heavily depends on the circumstances one has to perform it in - most particular in both cases the weather. Lastly it depends on what sort of interactions and dependencies your job might have with other human beings. Usually I would say that the "harder" job would be the one that has the most physical labour involved, is to be conducted most often in the worst weather, and has the worst interactions with other human beings. After all, both jobs become more difficult if they also entail being load master, mechanic, scheduler, dispatcher, supervisor and customer service agent.

As per managing risk, I'm not sure that there's a measurable amount of weight that one could assume in responsibility in whether you screwing up might kill one other person, a busload or a plane load.

For skill involved, any job that requires doing anything that may be considered a series of physical movements is going to be easier with experience and practice. Possibly flying airplanes might require a higher knowledge set, but then everything does if you wish to perform it well. Crappy pilots know as little about their profession as crappy truck drivers.

At the end of the day, they are both blue collar jobs. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by ayseven » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:41 am

I think it all depends on what kind of day you are having.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:40 am

I don't mean to demean aircraft flying. I was responding to posts implying truck driving is "easy". Technically, yes perhaps. To not take the lives of others while driving something that won't stop or corner well on a highway, any inattention isn't a good thing.

I just went up north and drove many hours in driving snow on 2 lane highways, many trucks on the highway. On our trip we diverted around a nasty accident on Hwy 17, 2 transports collided head on, a long straight stretch.

Also was on several 703 flights as a pax to uncontrolled remote airports, in moderate weather. Young captain was very professional and safe, I was impressed.

All in all I thought my time on the 2 lane highway was probably far more dangerous, passing by all those trucks.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Squaretail » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:32 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:40 am
I don't mean to demean aircraft flying. I was responding to posts implying truck driving is "easy". Technically, yes perhaps.
Well in that regard, the actual motor skill they are of both similar levels. Ultimately neither of them are difficult tasks, both reasonably learned, and honed with the increasing amounts of usage. In both there is a certain amount of efficiency and safety gained with experience. Who actually knows how to drive a truck, for instance, will quickly reveal itself observing backing up a trailer, just like one may make the same observation watching pilots land aeroplanes.
any inattention isn't a good thing.
That can be said of any profession involving any hand skill. With differing levels of catastrophic results. It should be said that ultimately, most air accidents are the result of inattention of the pilot. Statistically speaking, looked at as a per mile or hour basis, truck driving is safer than flying, if we include all types of each. If it appears otherwise, it’s because the actual amount of truck miles and hours vs. Aircraft ones are different by a few orders of magnitude, and one is more likely to witness the former in close proximity.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by L39Guy » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:14 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:12 pm
Rookie, why do so many people here think I am anti education just because it is my opinion flying for a living is not exactly up there with brain surgery?

Furthermore once one can read and write they can self educate and I feel I did fairly well in that endeavour.
In one sentence you just answered my question.

Actually, I think flying professionally in an airline-type environment is up there with "brain surgery". Perhaps because you never have flown in an airline environment with the myriad of documents to know (internal like AOM, SOP's, FOM's and external like CARS, AIM, ICAO rules for different airspaces, ETOPS, etc.) with sophisticated aircraft and complex operating environments, perhaps never had to do recurrent simulator every six months, etc. flying to you seems like it's a piece-of-cake. And flying around VFR in water bombers, fire fighting, etc. and having done it for 50+ years I am sure that it appears to be easy - if it is not after all those years then there is something wrong.

But coming from a guy that has plenty of post secondary education, 36 years of military and airline flying experience as well as small civilian aircraft, I can assure you that airline flying is demanding and that airline and military flying does require lots of education - I would submit that the military flying program is equivalent at least to a 2 year diploma and perhaps more. In fact, I found military flying training more difficult than an engineering degree (which is no insignificant accomplishment). Not only did one have to have it together in ground school but one also had to perform on the flight line everyday. One failed trip and you are on the slippery slope out of the program. I am sure it is similar at Seneca and Mount Royal too as they both are integrated and regimented flying training programs with high attrition rates.

Can you name another profession that does more education and training than a professional airline pilot? We do 3 months of training when we convert to a new aircraft and every time I do new course I have a helmet fire during the simulator training (even after all these years) and never really feel comfortable in my new ride for about a year. We do recurrent simulator complete with exams. We do online training modules for winter operations, ETOPS, etc. regularly.

Doctors, dentists, accountants, engineers, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, etc. do not come close to do that amount of training. Most professions do 40 hours of "professional development" which can be rigorous or can be fun, such as going on a cruise ship and taking some light course.

And how about evaluation? Perhaps in your aviation career you didn't have to do many check rides but in mine it is twice per year in the simulator (after the initial training) and annual in the real aircraft. How many doctors, dentists, accountants, engineers, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, etc. are evaluated like airline pilots are wherein their licenses and hence livelihoods are on the line?

In the wider world, increasing educational requirements is quite normal; at one time to be a teacher one had a 2 year certificate; today one needs a four year degree. Dental hygenists used to be a two year program, now it is four. Education inflation is not just common in the aviation industry but in most industries now. All of these fields are more complex and sophisticated now than ever before as we keep compounding the amount of information required as new research, techniques and technologies are discovered over time.

Given your flying background, I get and respect why you don't consider professional flying as "brain surgery" however I find your tone and content demeaning to the professional airline pilot. Airline pilots happen to be highly regarded in society for a good reason; the public understands the training and responsibility we carry.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by digits_ » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:28 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:14 pm


Actually, I think flying professionally in an airline-type environment is up there with "brain surgery". Perhaps because you never have flown in an airline environment with the myriad of documents to know (internal like AOM, SOP's, FOM's and external like CARS, AIM, ICAO rules for different airspaces, ETOPS, etc.) with sophisticated aircraft and complex operating environments, perhaps never had to do recurrent simulator every six months, etc. flying to you seems like it's a piece-of-cake.
I agree that it is a bit harder than what it might look like at first glance, but to put it "up there" with brain surgery (and later in your post with engineering) goes a little too far I'd say. For the civlian part, being an airline pilot is nowhere near the level of expertise required to be an engineer or a brain surgeon. You can't honestly compare a >= 5 year engineering degree with a 2 year aviation training program. Even if you add 3 months for company training and line indoc, it doesn't come close. Sure, there will be some intense moments, and there might be more of a skill required, but I'm pretty sure, in general the engineering program would be more difficult.
Now if we compare it to brain surgery. How long does it take before one is a licensed brain surgeon? 8 years of school and 7 years on the job training-ish? You can do a LOT of typerating courses in that timeframe.

But let's try to keep it logical instead of emotional. Take 2 groups. Group A and group B. Group A contains a variety of people holding an engineering degree. Group B is a mix of pilots flying for different operators.

If group A decided to become pilots, how many would pass the training?
If group B decided to become engineer, how many would pass the training?

If I would have the audacity to gamble on these questions, I would say about 75% for the first question, and less than 20% for the second question.

You can rinse and repeat for brain surgeons.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:30 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:14 pm

Actually, I think flying professionally in an airline-type environment is up there with "brain surgery".


But coming from a guy that has plenty of post secondary education, 36 years of military and airline flying experience as well as small civilian aircraft, I can assure you that airline flying is demanding and that airline and military flying does require lots of education - I would submit that the military flying program is equivalent at least to a 2 year diploma and perhaps more. In fact, I found military flying training more difficult than an engineering degree (which is no insignificant accomplishment).

Doctors, dentists, accountants, engineers, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, etc. do not come close to do that amount of training.
Seriously? I think not.

I have a lot -- too much -- experience dealing with different highly qualified medical specialists on behalf of family, and know something of their primary and continuing training.

I am also -- granted -- a lower time, amateur pilot who's done a reasonable amount of SP IFR, at least enough to have some appreciation for the knowledge and workload involved.

You're way over your skis even comparing the 2.

Not only is this one of the most foolish comments I've read in awhile on this forum, you seem to want to elevate your own accomplishments ahead of qualified professionals in many other fields.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:54 pm

And flying around VFR in water bombers, fire fighting, etc. and having done it for 50+ years I am sure that it appears to be easy -
Regardless of your high education claim it obviously has not given you the capacity to understand what someone writes.

As an example I clearly stated I have over five thousand hours in the north flying DC3's and that obviously means lots fo IFR flying in IMC.

Not to mention it was all hand flown due to no autopilots in the machines.

Oh, by the way I received my ATPL in 1961 and the airplane used for the written exam was the Lockheed Super Constellation 1049 G.

And the answers were hand written as there were no multiple choice exams in Canadian aviation those days.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:40 pm

IFR in the north largely uncontrolled airspace is a little different than IFR going YYZ to CDG on the NAT system, NRT using the polar routes or SYD across the equator and Pacific Ocean.

It's also different to do it repeatedly, with a high degree of professionalism and competency compared to the odd one-off well preped ferry flight.

ETOPS, distant diversion airports, different international regulations and procedures.

Some of the senior 777 captains flying today actually flew the constellation, not just wrote an exam that featured vague aspects of the plane as it related to airline flying.

Yes bombing around in a DC3 required more stick and rudder skills than a modern autoland capable airliner, but the knowledge required to fly those planes is vastly higher. Because you don't understand that and actually belittle those pilots means you're just ignorant.
All I have said is one does not need greater than high school to be able to safely and skillfully fly any airplane including an airline category airplane.
So I guess the months long type rating courses don't count as education or school. No it's not a formal 4 year bachelor's degree, but ground school and sim training is certainly educating, and with a career ending potential for failure. Nobody will ever fly an airliner with just a high school education, you'll have to pass the in-depth type specific groundschool first. Route knowledge and training is required for international operations. Company specific requirements too, and I bet those weren't covered in Airbus specific A320 sim sessions either. Operating a A320 in the simulated circuit is different than operating within the Lufthansa system smoothly, safely and efficiently.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:42 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:54 pm


As an example I clearly stated I have over five thousand hours in the north flying DC3's and that obviously means lots fo IFR flying in IMC.

Not to mention it was all hand flown due to no autopilots in the machines.
Apparently flying a 787 with three autopilots on long overseas legs, must be that much tougher.

Cwe, bottom line -- some are from the attitude, if you have an advanced degree you are worth something, if you don't you're not.

I've seen that in many individuals. Most I wouldn't trust to serve me coffee.

Book smart. Life stupid beyond words.

Ivory tower BS attitude.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Skyhunter » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:46 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:14 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:12 pm
Rookie, why do so many people here think I am anti education just because it is my opinion flying for a living is not exactly up there with brain surgery?

Furthermore once one can read and write they can self educate and I feel I did fairly well in that endeavour.
In one sentence you just answered my question.

Actually, I think flying professionally in an airline-type environment is up there with "brain surgery". Perhaps because you never have flown in an airline environment with the myriad of documents to know (internal like AOM, SOP's, FOM's and external like CARS, AIM, ICAO rules for different airspaces, ETOPS, etc.) with sophisticated aircraft and complex operating environments, perhaps never had to do recurrent simulator every six months, etc. flying to you seems like it's a piece-of-cake. And flying around VFR in water bombers, fire fighting, etc. and having done it for 50+ years I am sure that it appears to be easy - if it is not after all those years then there is something wrong.

But coming from a guy that has plenty of post secondary education, 36 years of military and airline flying experience as well as small civilian aircraft, I can assure you that airline flying is demanding and that airline and military flying does require lots of education - I would submit that the military flying program is equivalent at least to a 2 year diploma and perhaps more. In fact, I found military flying training more difficult than an engineering degree (which is no insignificant accomplishment). Not only did one have to have it together in ground school but one also had to perform on the flight line everyday. One failed trip and you are on the slippery slope out of the program. I am sure it is similar at Seneca and Mount Royal too as they both are integrated and regimented flying training programs with high attrition rates.

Can you name another profession that does more education and training than a professional airline pilot? We do 3 months of training when we convert to a new aircraft and every time I do new course I have a helmet fire during the simulator training (even after all these years) and never really feel comfortable in my new ride for about a year. We do recurrent simulator complete with exams. We do online training modules for winter operations, ETOPS, etc. regularly.

Doctors, dentists, accountants, engineers, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, etc. do not come close to do that amount of training. Most professions do 40 hours of "professional development" which can be rigorous or can be fun, such as going on a cruise ship and taking some light course.

And how about evaluation? Perhaps in your aviation career you didn't have to do many check rides but in mine it is twice per year in the simulator (after the initial training) and annual in the real aircraft. How many doctors, dentists, accountants, engineers, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, etc. are evaluated like airline pilots are wherein their licenses and hence livelihoods are on the line?

In the wider world, increasing educational requirements is quite normal; at one time to be a teacher one had a 2 year certificate; today one needs a four year degree. Dental hygenists used to be a two year program, now it is four. Education inflation is not just common in the aviation industry but in most industries now. All of these fields are more complex and sophisticated now than ever before as we keep compounding the amount of information required as new research, techniques and technologies are discovered over time.

Given your flying background, I get and respect why you don't consider professional flying as "brain surgery" however I find your tone and content demeaning to the professional airline pilot. Airline pilots happen to be highly regarded in society for a good reason; the public understands the training and responsibility we carry.
I so have to disagree with this whole post! First my background...quickly... aviation college, 21 year airforce (Hornets, and instructor), 8 years civvy (2 up North Dornier 228, and ATR and 6.5 at AC (currently Airbus Capt, and have been EMJ Capt). There is no part of any of my jobs that I have needed more than a high school education for! period. My current job, really isn't that hard. Just saying. Not sure why you think it is L39 guy.

It really isn't rocket surgery or brain science.

Flying low level in the Hornet, as part of a large package, running a radar dropping bombs, 250' at 500 kts.... That took some skill, yes... but nothing more than high school education, closer to what being a good hockey play would need.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:57 pm

Apparently flying a 787 with three autopilots on long overseas legs, must be that much tougher.
I spent years commuting back and forth to Europe and Africa using my Airfrance / KLM pilot ID card sitting in the jump seat watching the crews fly the airplanes.

They spend hour after hour watching the machine fly its self and the only hand flying is the take off and the landing the long haul guys get few actual hours of hands on flying.

My last flight in Europe was from turkey back to Amsterdam and due to the very long day the crew had I watched them autoland the 767 300 ER in Amsterdam..... yeh it was real tough flying. :rolleyes:

The most exciting thing is working the radios with the frequent hand off's in the European airspace......one does not have to be actually flying the things to be able to understand how it is done when you are sitting in the jump seat. :mrgreen:
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by L39Guy » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:06 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:30 pm
L39Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:14 pm

Actually, I think flying professionally in an airline-type environment is up there with "brain surgery".


But coming from a guy that has plenty of post secondary education, 36 years of military and airline flying experience as well as small civilian aircraft, I can assure you that airline flying is demanding and that airline and military flying does require lots of education - I would submit that the military flying program is equivalent at least to a 2 year diploma and perhaps more. In fact, I found military flying training more difficult than an engineering degree (which is no insignificant accomplishment).

Doctors, dentists, accountants, engineers, plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, etc. do not come close to do that amount of training.
Seriously? I think not.

Not only is this one of the most foolish comments I've read in awhile on this forum, you seem to want to elevate your own accomplishments ahead of qualified professionals in many other fields.
Nice try quoting me out of context; the context of that statement refers to the previous paragraph wherein I state that an airline pilots does continuous training following their initial airline training. It did not refer to the training prior to becoming an airline pilot which is obviously less than a brain surgeon but I can guarantee you that the amount of training once employed as a airline pilot is more than that of an engineer (as I am also a P.Eng. and all I have to do is 40 hours of PPD), a dentist (my wife is a retired one and all she had to do was 40 hours of PPD per year), and many other professional friends that are accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. And the trades, how many of them do anywhere near the amount of post employment training that airline pilots do. Not even close.

I am not pumping my tires on my own accomplishments; I a pretty secure who I am. I do, however, have lots of other skills that I can compare to being a professional pilot so I can form a pretty damn good comparison.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by L39Guy » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:18 pm

Skyhunter wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:46 pm

I so have to disagree with this whole post! First my background...quickly... aviation college, 21 year airforce (Hornets, and instructor), 8 years civvy (2 up North Dornier 228, and ATR and 6.5 at AC (currently Airbus Capt, and have been EMJ Capt). There is no part of any of my jobs that I have needed more than a high school education for! period. My current job, really isn't that hard. Just saying. Not sure why you think it is L39 guy.

It really isn't rocket surgery or brain science.

Flying low level in the Hornet, as part of a large package, running a radar dropping bombs, 250' at 500 kts.... That took some skill, yes... but nothing more than high school education, closer to what being a good hockey play would need.
So you don't think all of the meteorology you took in Portage and Moose Jaw, the IFR training in CYMJ, the AOI's, and all of the course you took before wings count for something. You do think your post wings training in Cold Lake on Hawk or CF5 (depending upon your vintage) then the CF18 training you did afterwards doesn't count for something. Do you think you can throw a high school student onto a CF18 course with zero flight time experience and he or she will pass? I didn't think flying fighters was so easy.

Or tell me, could you parachute into Air Canada, sans aviation college or military flying training and no flying experience, and complete an EMJ or Airbus course?

Or perhaps, as I described above, your two years of training to get your wings following high school is the equivalent of a diploma, much like a Mount Royal or Seneca two-year diploma. Yes, a high school education is all you need to start flying training in the Air Force and Mount Royal and Seneca but what I think you are failing to recognize is your aviation college/military wings is indeed training, post secondary school, that you use to fly Hornets or Airbus's.
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L39Guy
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by L39Guy » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:33 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:57 pm
Apparently flying a 787 with three autopilots on long overseas legs, must be that much tougher.
I spent years commuting back and forth to Europe and Africa using my Airfrance / KLM pilot ID card sitting in the jump seat watching the crews fly the airplanes.

They spend hour after hour watching the machine fly its self and the only hand flying is the take off and the landing the long haul guys get few actual hours of hands on flying.

My last flight in Europe was from turkey back to Amsterdam and due to the very long day the crew had I watched them autoland the 767 300 ER in Amsterdam..... yeh it was real tough flying. :rolleyes:

The most exciting thing is working the radios with the frequent hand off's in the European airspace......one does not have to be actually flying the things to be able to understand how it is done when you are sitting in the jump seat. :mrgreen:
Yup, sitting in the jumpseat gives you a really good perspective on the training, experience and constant evaluation professional airline pilots undergo.

I never cease getting a kick out of the non-flying pubic talking about how "George" flies that airplane. All George does is go where is commanded to go by the FMS or manual inputs into the autopilot system through the MCP. But those inputs come from somewhere and in the case of using the MCP it is the autopilot acting as an attitude platform for a pilot commanding motion in 3 dimensions.

So would it make you happier that if after the hand flying of the take-off you noted above that they hand flew through the the climb and cruise? Would that somehow valid them as "real pilots" in your estimation. Personally, I don't think there is much to be gained by hand flying in cruise and perhaps you didn't either in your beloved DC 3 even if it had the most basic autopilot.

While you like to use the KLM/Air France example of a long haul flight, what about the Jazz or Encore pilots pounding out 6 or 8 landings a day, with or without using the autopilot. Does that meet your standard of what being a professional pilot is all about.

Your paradigm is hand bombing an airplane around that is great and I am happy for you that you have done that for years and it has provided you satisfying employment but please do not denigrate those of us that flying complex aircraft requiring tons of training and ongoing evaluation. It's not as easy as it seems sitting in a jumpseat.
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digits_
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by digits_ » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:24 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:18 pm


Or tell me, could you parachute into Air Canada, sans aviation college or military flying training and no flying experience, and complete an EMJ or Airbus course?
Who is claiming that this is possible?
However, you can take a 0 hour pilot, train them for 2 years and have them fly an Airbus yes. Europe does it all the time.
As far as I know, it is impossible to have a functioning brain surgeon or a functioning engineer after 2 years of training.

Regarding the training in the civlian industry: sure, you have to retrain every 6 months, but, 90% of the stuff is the same thing every time.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by jakeandelwood » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:55 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:42 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:54 pm


As an example I clearly stated I have over five thousand hours in the north flying DC3's and that obviously means lots fo IFR flying in IMC.

Not to mention it was all hand flown due to no autopilots in the machines.
Apparently flying a 787 with three autopilots on long overseas legs, must be that much tougher.

Cwe, bottom line -- some are from the attitude, if you have an advanced degree you are worth something, if you don't you're not.

I've seen that in many individuals. Most I wouldn't trust to serve me coffee.

Book smart. Life stupid beyond words.

Ivory tower BS attitude.
Yup, those type of people are the ones on the side of the road staring at their flat tire while waiting for the tow truck.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:06 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:55 pm

Yup, those type of people are the ones on the side of the road staring at their flat tire while waiting for the tow truck.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... fpe6qd.jpg
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Zaibatsu » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:33 am

Wow L-39.

I know you want to feel really good about your accomplishments. And you should. No pilot who went all the way up through the air force had it easy.

But the reason it’s hard is because slots in the forces are limited so the requirements are made artificially high. Same thing in the civilian world until a few years ago.

An A320 type rating and seat is a commodity, not the gem you make it out to be. For every fighter pilot that made it there, there’s ten or more 250 hour frozen ATPL pilots in Europe and Asia who are doing the same job.

Trying to compare that to the four years of pre med, four years of med school, almost a decade of residency, and never ending journals and lectures and training, and you need brain surgery.

It’s mentally tougher than truck driving. Not even close to being a surgeon.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Stu Pidasso » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:12 pm

Truck Drivers, one of my favorite topics of late. Ever since the Trucking industry got taken over by a group of a certain demographic, they have become the menace of the road. Humboldt as one small example, cut every corner to squeeze every penny of profit. And then hide the business under the umbrella of the Church, avoiding taxes. Gotta hand it to them, they know how to milk the Canadian system.

There (was) a time when Truckers were the Professionals of the road - certainly no longer.


One thing I noticed, many decades ago, is Pilot's that demean the Profession are usually not very good at the job themselves. I remember being a new FO in the right seat, flying with a Captain that could hardly keep the Jet right side up. We get a visitor from the cabin (yes that was allowed at one time) and he says; "this is the easiest job around, no more difficult than driving a car."


What an idiot, too stupid to know how lousy a Pilot he really was!
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