Operating different machines.

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simplicity
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by simplicity »

jakeandelwood wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:35 pm
Meatservo wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:59 pm Cat Driver, I want to start by apologizing for my comment about the hollowed-out watermelon. I was drinking after work (flying planes) and it seemed like a funny comment to make at the time.

I've been thinking about your question, and I believe the truth can be found by breaking things down into discrete actions that are representative of the various tasks at hand. In order to be completely objective of course one has to account for what particular oeuvre one is talking about, so I'll try to be clear as to which vintage of machine or time in history I'm referencing.

1: "Getting there"

PLANE: finding heading by referencing the nautical almanac to find the greenwich hour angle of Aries, converting to local hour angle (presuming you've been careful and you know your longitude), using the chart to correct for sidereal hour angle to find local hour angle of the star you've managed to spot, using astrocompass to sight the star and then set your gyro, mark that on the chart and continue dead-reckoning until you pick up the beacon more or less where you were hoping it would be

TRUCK: Stay on right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

2: "Docking"

PLANE: sail an Otter in floats into its spot between two other Otters on a busy dock in gusty wind with no swamper

TRUCK: Back your trailer into the loading port on the side of Wal-Mart "

WHICH IS HARDER: DRAW


3:"STEERING"

PLANE: Co-ordinate roll, pitch and yaw to maintain altitude, speed and course using instruments without being able to see out the window

TRUCK: Stay in right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

4: "NOT PLOUGHING INTO STUFF"

PLANE: flying through the air

TRUCK: rolling along the ground

WHICH IS HARDER: TRUCK

5: "Mental Math"

PLANE: magnetic variation, zulu time, descent angle, depressurization rates, rate of turn, VHF reception distance, available hold times, cold weather corrections, holdover times, tide charts

TRUCK: what time the all-night Denny's closes

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

6) "Staying Fit"

PLANE: technical exam every year, performance test including emergency scenarios requiring memorized procedures every six months

TRUCK: Whatever.

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

7) "Parking"

PLANE: Beach, Esker, Field, Rocks, River, Snow, Slush, Tundra...

TRUCK: WAL-Mart

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE



Now I could be a dick and go on and on and on, but I truly believe that truck-driving is honourable, honest work and I wouldn't normally denigrate it like Cat Driver constantly does by comparing it to aeroplane flying. I also believe that modern 705 copilots are dissipated, whiney, underachieving, pampered little pricks who would be too timorous to even attempt driving anything with a manual transmission, let alone without an FMS and autopilot. So, I'm not actually sure where I stand on this issue.
" backing into the loading dock at Wal-Mart" wow, if it were that easy! I've never backed into a Wal-Mart loading dock ever, but I've taken a rocking back and forth loaded fuel truck into places that most people wouldn't take their 4x4 pickups into
Want an award?

Go land a plane at minimums on a 2500' ice strip with a 35kt gusting crosswind. At night, with dim potlights that barely qualify as runway lighting.

Nothing you say can make me think driving truck is harder than flying. What so ever.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Zaibatsu »

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digits_
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by digits_ »

What about Zambonis? Imagine being a Zamboni driver. The pressure is always on. If you are late, thousands of people have to wait for you. A multi million dollar industry depends on YOUR skills to create top qualiy smooth surfaces.

They are obviously highly trained professionals, as there are rarely any fatal accidents. They drive on conditions you wouldn't dream of putting any other vehicle on!

CRFI limitations? Not for these bad boys, they just GO! Duty day limitations? Wouldn't dream of it! How many people start out as novice Zamboni drivers and make it to the NHL? Not a lot. More exclusive than AC I would say.

I heard some are pilots during their off season.

A friend of mine is a professional Zamboni driver. Never had any formal education. Drove Zambonis for 50 years. Back in the day when you basically had to spray the ice with a water bottle. Those were the days. He tried the trucking route. Wasn't for him. Never had an accident in his 50 years! Not once! He did it all, resurfaced ice on movie sets, resurfaced ice in Europe. He made good money doing it. He also trained other Zamboni drivers. Actually he wants to teach people how to drive Zambonis, but he has been trying to put his Zamboni together for years now and his Zamboni teaching license has expired.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

Go land a plane at minimums on a 2500' ice strip with a 35kt gusting crosswind. At night, with dim potlights that barely qualify as runway lighting.
Did you fly for Austin Airways?
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trey kule
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by trey kule »

Digits, old boy, Your post of the operator was very good and clever.
I didn’t even know they had Zambonis on the island.

But I am afraid that your target audience might have missed the analogy.

Maybe when he gets his Zamboni built, he will renew his medical and instructor rating,
Shouldn’t be much over 90 by then, but still at the top of his game.
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digits_
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by digits_ »

trey kule wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:38 am Digits, old boy, Your post of the operator was very good and clever.
I didn’t even know they had Zambonis on the island.

But I am afraid that your target audience might have missed the analogy.

Maybe when he gets his Zamboni built, he will renew his medical and instructor rating,
Shouldn’t be much over 90 by then, but still at the top of his game.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.


:smt031
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C.W.E.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

A friend of mine is a professional Zamboni driver. Never had any formal education. Drove Zambonis for 50 years. Back in the day when you basically had to spray the ice with a water bottle. Those were the days. He tried the trucking route. Wasn't for him. Never had an accident in his 50 years! Not once! He did it all, resurfaced ice on movie sets, resurfaced ice in Europe. He made good money doing it. He also trained other Zamboni drivers. Actually he wants to teach people how to drive Zambonis, but he has been trying to put his Zamboni together for years now and his Zamboni teaching license has expired.
Well digits at least your friend seems to have accomplished something more tangible than being an internet troll making snide remarks every chance he / she gets.

If you are so accomplished as a pilot why not share some of your flying experiences with us? :?
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digits_
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:49 am
A friend of mine is a professional Zamboni driver. Never had any formal education. Drove Zambonis for 50 years. Back in the day when you basically had to spray the ice with a water bottle. Those were the days. He tried the trucking route. Wasn't for him. Never had an accident in his 50 years! Not once! He did it all, resurfaced ice on movie sets, resurfaced ice in Europe. He made good money doing it. He also trained other Zamboni drivers. Actually he wants to teach people how to drive Zambonis, but he has been trying to put his Zamboni together for years now and his Zamboni teaching license has expired.
Well digits at least your friend seems to have accomplished something more tangible than being an internet troll making snide remarks every chance he / she gets.

If you are so accomplished as a pilot why not share some of your flying experiences with us? :?
See that's the part you often overlook: you can post on avcanada and share information without claiming you are an accomplished pilot.
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
C.W.E.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

See that's the part you often overlook: you can post on avcanada and share information without claiming you are an accomplished pilot.
Fair enough digits, rather than post negative comments about others why don't you post some stories of flying experiences you were incompetent in if you can't think of any flying you did that was an accomplishment.

That is assuming you are a pilot.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by jakeandelwood »

simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:45 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:35 pm
Meatservo wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:59 pm Cat Driver, I want to start by apologizing for my comment about the hollowed-out watermelon. I was drinking after work (flying planes) and it seemed like a funny comment to make at the time.

I've been thinking about your question, and I believe the truth can be found by breaking things down into discrete actions that are representative of the various tasks at hand. In order to be completely objective of course one has to account for what particular oeuvre one is talking about, so I'll try to be clear as to which vintage of machine or time in history I'm referencing.

1: "Getting there"

PLANE: finding heading by referencing the nautical almanac to find the greenwich hour angle of Aries, converting to local hour angle (presuming you've been careful and you know your longitude), using the chart to correct for sidereal hour angle to find local hour angle of the star you've managed to spot, using astrocompass to sight the star and then set your gyro, mark that on the chart and continue dead-reckoning until you pick up the beacon more or less where you were hoping it would be

TRUCK: Stay on right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

2: "Docking"

PLANE: sail an Otter in floats into its spot between two other Otters on a busy dock in gusty wind with no swamper

TRUCK: Back your trailer into the loading port on the side of Wal-Mart "

WHICH IS HARDER: DRAW


3:"STEERING"

PLANE: Co-ordinate roll, pitch and yaw to maintain altitude, speed and course using instruments without being able to see out the window

TRUCK: Stay in right side of yellow line; look out for signs

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

4: "NOT PLOUGHING INTO STUFF"

PLANE: flying through the air

TRUCK: rolling along the ground

WHICH IS HARDER: TRUCK

5: "Mental Math"

PLANE: magnetic variation, zulu time, descent angle, depressurization rates, rate of turn, VHF reception distance, available hold times, cold weather corrections, holdover times, tide charts

TRUCK: what time the all-night Denny's closes

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

6) "Staying Fit"

PLANE: technical exam every year, performance test including emergency scenarios requiring memorized procedures every six months

TRUCK: Whatever.

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE

7) "Parking"

PLANE: Beach, Esker, Field, Rocks, River, Snow, Slush, Tundra...

TRUCK: WAL-Mart

WHICH IS HARDER: PLANE



Now I could be a dick and go on and on and on, but I truly believe that truck-driving is honourable, honest work and I wouldn't normally denigrate it like Cat Driver constantly does by comparing it to aeroplane flying. I also believe that modern 705 copilots are dissipated, whiney, underachieving, pampered little pricks who would be too timorous to even attempt driving anything with a manual transmission, let alone without an FMS and autopilot. So, I'm not actually sure where I stand on this issue.
" backing into the loading dock at Wal-Mart" wow, if it were that easy! I've never backed into a Wal-Mart loading dock ever, but I've taken a rocking back and forth loaded fuel truck into places that most people wouldn't take their 4x4 pickups into
Want an award?

Go land a plane at minimums on a 2500' ice strip with a 35kt gusting crosswind. At night, with dim potlights that barely qualify as runway lighting.

Nothing you say can make me think driving truck is harder than flying. What so ever.
No, I don't need no reward. I didn't say it was harder or more difficult. Have you worked in both professions for any length of time? Unless you have then you can hardly say anything about how hard it is. So you can land a plane in a 35 knot X wind on a short icy runway, maybe I can to, never done it though. Maybe you can jump into a truck and butter thru the gears while climbing a grade in a loaded truck, or maybe you'll tear the drive shaft out of it before you get out of low range, I don't know. Keep feeding your ego though, just repeat it over and over in your head, "nothing is harder than being a pilot"
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simplicity
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by simplicity »

jakeandelwood wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:39 pm
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:45 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:35 pm

" backing into the loading dock at Wal-Mart" wow, if it were that easy! I've never backed into a Wal-Mart loading dock ever, but I've taken a rocking back and forth loaded fuel truck into places that most people wouldn't take their 4x4 pickups into
Want an award?

Go land a plane at minimums on a 2500' ice strip with a 35kt gusting crosswind. At night, with dim potlights that barely qualify as runway lighting.

Nothing you say can make me think driving truck is harder than flying. What so ever.
No, I don't need no reward. I didn't say it was harder or more difficult. Have you worked in both professions for any length of time? Unless you have then you can hardly say anything about how hard it is. So you can land a plane in a 35 knot X wind on a short icy runway, maybe I can to, never done it though. Maybe you can jump into a truck and butter thru the gears while climbing a grade in a loaded truck, or maybe you'll tear the drive shaft out of it before you get out of low range, I don't know. Keep feeding your ego though, just repeat it over and over in your head, "nothing is harder than being a pilot"
I drove a tractor trailer for a bit over a year. Both container and flat bed.

I also never said nothing is harder than being a pilot. I'm just tired of people comparing it to driving a truck or bus because it's not comparable.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by valleyboy »

harder than being a pilot"
If you believe that you are in the wrong profession. Being a pilot is not difficult at all. You need to apply yourself but difficult it's not. I made my living for over 50 years as one and yes sometimes a pain in the ass and the odd challenge but difficult certainly not.
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Bede
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Bede »

valleyboy wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:46 am
harder than being a pilot"
If you believe that you are in the wrong profession. Being a pilot is not difficult at all. You need to apply yourself but difficult it's not. I made my living for over 50 years as one and yes sometimes a pain in the ass and the odd challenge but difficult certainly not.
We find it easy because we have a lot of practice and have become good at our profession.

I have a couple of friends that are surgeons. They think surgery is easy too. Same goes for any other profession. Professions such as pilots & surgeons earn what they do not because the day to day is technically or intellectually difficult, but because they have the ability to deal with extremely difficult situations should the need arise.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by jakeandelwood »

There are easy truck driving jobs and there are hard ones. I drive a single axle straight truck with an automatic transmission mainly, anyone with a class 5 licence and an air endorsement can drive it. I deliver home heating oil, the driving isn't hard, it's the crap you deal with once you get to your next stop. I get paid more than most class one drivers for a reason, we just hired an experienced class one driver to drive these little trucks, he says this is the hardest driving job he has had.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

If you believe that you are in the wrong profession. Being a pilot is not difficult at all. You need to apply yourself but difficult it's not. I made my living for over 50 years as one and yes sometimes a pain in the ass and the odd challenge but difficult certainly not.
Thank you valleyboy for putting this subject in its true perspective like you I also made my living as a pilot for over 50 years and I also did not find it difficult.

Try comparing flying an airplane to driving one of those huge off road logging semis that we have here in B.C. bringing tons of logs down those narrow, steep mountain side roads during the winter with snow and ice covering the road.

If you think flying is more demanding and more dangerous than that can you contact me and tell me where you get your drugs? :mrgreen:
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by Zaibatsu »

You described about maybe 1% of trucking.

And you can still pull over and stop.

:weedman:
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by C.W.E. »

You described about maybe 1% of trucking.
That is true, however the risk factor and concentration required is for the whole trip down the mountain.

What percent of a given flight is high risk?
And you can still pull over and stop.
That is also true, however do you wait for spring to melt the ice and snow before you complete the trip?
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by goingnowherefast »

Operating a turbine DC3 must be extremely difficult...
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by jakeandelwood »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:02 am
If you believe that you are in the wrong profession. Being a pilot is not difficult at all. You need to apply yourself but difficult it's not. I made my living for over 50 years as one and yes sometimes a pain in the ass and the odd challenge but difficult certainly not.
Thank you valleyboy for putting this subject in its true perspective like you I also made my living as a pilot for over 50 years and I also did not find it difficult.

Try comparing flying an airplane to driving one of those huge off road logging semis that we have here in B.C. bringing tons of logs down those narrow, steep mountain side roads during the winter with snow and ice covering the road.

If you think flying is more demanding and more dangerous than that can you contact me and tell me where you get your drugs? :mrgreen:
You pretty much just described truck driving in most third world countries.
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Re: Operating different machines.

Post by shimmydampner »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:02 am
If you believe that you are in the wrong profession. Being a pilot is not difficult at all. You need to apply yourself but difficult it's not. I made my living for over 50 years as one and yes sometimes a pain in the ass and the odd challenge but difficult certainly not.
Thank you valleyboy for putting this subject in its true perspective like you I also made my living as a pilot for over 50 years and I also did not find it difficult.

Try comparing flying an airplane to driving one of those huge off road logging semis that we have here in B.C. bringing tons of logs down those narrow, steep mountain side roads during the winter with snow and ice covering the road.

If you think flying is more demanding and more dangerous than that can you contact me and tell me where you get your drugs? :mrgreen:
I fail to see how anything was "put into perspective." What a silly argument and what a strange form of ego it is that makes one downplay the objective "difficulty" of doing something with subjective ease after the benefit of 50 years of practice at it.
Let's say that your wife and children need to get from Winnipeg to Saskatoon and a random 18 year old kid is going to take them there in a type of machine he or she has never operated before. You have 15 minutes to explain to the kid how your vehicle of choice operates before you put the people you care most about in his or her care. Do you put them in a truck or in an airplane? I know what one I would pick for my loved ones.
Or if you prefer your cherry-picked, more extreme example of mountain logging trucks, let's try this: your family needs to get from the top of the mountain to the bottom. You can put them in the logging truck at the top of the logging road with the kid, or he can pick them up on a glacier in a wheel/ski equipped airplane and drop them off on a gravel bar at the bottom. Which one do you pick? I must admit, I wouldn't feel great about either, but there is still a clear winner here, and in my opinion it doesn't require mind altering drugs to see which one it is. But then, I probably don't take nearly as much Geritol as you.
Don't let your ego and narcissism make you disingenuous about the objective challenge of flying airplanes. Especially after 50 years of practice. Besides, you're probably not as good as you once were.
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