Shortage of Military pilots

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godsrcrazy
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Shortage of Military pilots

Post by godsrcrazy » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:40 am

Does anyone else smell something bad with this. Reminds me of a few years back when Flying Aces was started by Discovery air and ran by a bunch of ex airforce pilots to run decoy planes for the CF18's to chase. They were able to under bid the company that had the contract for years. I am sure they had no idea what previous pricing was. Now the Government wants to hire ex military pilots to crew Military aircraft. I wonder what the name of that company will be.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/c ... ar-BBYbJWu
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snowcrest
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by snowcrest » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Why does avcanada always assume the worst?
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by flyingcanuck » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:31 pm

snowcrest wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:21 pm
Why does avcanada always assume the worst?
Because its true? It seems like they are slowly moving towards the way of privatization, and do nothing for retention for their pilots and any other trade.
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snowcrest
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by snowcrest » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:03 pm

flyingcanuck wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:31 pm
snowcrest wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:21 pm
Why does avcanada always assume the worst?
Because its true? It seems like they are slowly moving towards the way of privatization, and do nothing for retention for their pilots and any other trade.
I'm in the joint Seneca program with the RCAF, and they have nothing but good things to say.
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DadoBlade
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by DadoBlade » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 pm

Nothing new here. In June of 2014, Canada's DND, (Dept. of National Defence),
recruited and took-on-strength experienced RAF pilots to fly the CF-18. Canada's provider of air traffic services, NAV CANADA also hired a few experienced NATS ATCOs from the U.K. Yes, they had to qualify under routine on-the-job training, (check out), just like any other hire.
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Last edited by DadoBlade on Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

B208
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by B208 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:17 pm

godsrcrazy wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:40 am
Does anyone else smell something bad with this. Reminds me of a few years back when Flying Aces was started by Discovery air and ran by a bunch of ex airforce pilots to run decoy planes for the CF18's to chase. They were able to under bid the company that had the contract for years. I am sure they had no idea what previous pricing was. Now the Government wants to hire ex military pilots to crew Military aircraft. I wonder what the name of that company will be.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/c ... ar-BBYbJWu
I think you mean ‘Top Aces’.

Either way, the RCAF really has no choice but to contract out. The ‘leadership’ has pissed of most of the experienced guys so badly that they left (I’m referring to pilots and techs here) and now there is no one left to train the next generation. So, now they’re going to have to pay through the nose. But, hey; it’s not a retention problem, it’s a loyalty problem.
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B208
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by B208 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:20 pm

snowcrest wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:03 pm
flyingcanuck wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:31 pm
snowcrest wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:21 pm
Why does avcanada always assume the worst?
Because its true? It seems like they are slowly moving towards the way of privatization, and do nothing for retention for their pilots and any other trade.
I'm in the joint Seneca program with the RCAF, and they have nothing but good things to say.
Dude, my suggestion is that you experience a bit more of life in RCAF before you make up your mind one way or the other.
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B208
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by B208 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:24 pm

flyingcanuck wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:31 pm
snowcrest wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:21 pm
Why does avcanada always assume the worst?
Because its true? It seems like they are slowly moving towards the way of privatization, and do nothing for retention for their pilots and any other trade.
As much as I would love to lay the lack of retention efforts at the feet of the GOFOs, not all of them are at fault. Some very senior people made some very serious efforts to improve things last year; all of those efforts got shot down by Treasury Board.
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Schooner69A
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Schooner69A » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:38 pm

Well, if they come lookin' to lure me out of retirement, I'm putting my foot down!

Signing bonus, minimum $150000/yr plus allowances, 30 days (working days) holidays, and only work between ten and two with an hour off at noon for lunch and a nap...

:smt040
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Gannet167
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Gannet167 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:47 am

The discussion is not to hire civilian pilots to fly operationally. It is only to hire instructor pilots to teach at the schools. They would have to have a QFI (qualified flight instructor) rating and likely have to be ex military, likely ex QFI (which not many of the general RCAF pilot group is). They would fly training flights in the MTCA and the odd IFR cross country. Moose Jaw is the largest flying unit in the RCAF. Staffing a portion of the instructor pilots with civilians would allow QFIs currently teaching to return to their operational Sqns and alleviate some of the manning issues.

These civilian pilots would not be flying operationally and certainly won't be hired off the street without some background in military flying, likely in military instruction.

Given that ex RCAF QFI are actively recruited to instruct as civilians for some foreign air forces, at very beaucoup dollars, and many have other job options in various places of commercial aviation, would think the compensation would have to be competitive.
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KissPlusOne
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by KissPlusOne » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:13 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:38 pm
Well, if they come lookin' to lure me out of retirement, I'm putting my foot down!

Signing bonus, minimum $150000/yr plus allowances, 30 days (working days) holidays, and only work between ten and two with an hour off at noon for lunch and a nap...

:smt040
Sooooo, a typical government job, then???
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Schooner69A
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Schooner69A » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:50 am

"Sooooo, a typical government job, then???"



Tee hee: don't I wish.


Twenty-five years with the military and six years with TC weren't quite THAT cushy.


AAMOF, when I was in the military, my civilian counterparts were better paid and had better lifestyles. The time with TC had reasonable pay, good hours, but a definite lack of proficiency flying...


Except for an inability to plan ahead, the fifteen years with corporate aviation was great: good equipment, fair amount of flying, good people to work with, good people to transport, and variety in the flying: fixed wing and rotary wing.


If I could cobble together the good points from all my employments, now THAT would be a cushy job... :)
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ahramin
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by ahramin » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:52 am

I really don't care if some ex-military pilots are getting a windfall. What matters to me is how much these contractors cost vs how it was done before when the CF was staffed properly? Does it work better financially and operationally for the Air Force to have the personnel with the required expertise on staff or is it all the same whether they are contracted or not.

And when the contractors get old and retire, where is the new supply of contractors going to come from?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:01 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:38 pm
Well, if they come lookin' to lure me out of retirement, I'm putting my foot down!

Signing bonus, minimum $150000/yr plus allowances, 30 days (working days) holidays, and only work between ten and two with an hour off at noon for lunch and a nap...

:smt040
Air Force pilot OJPR: " Can without benefit of a menu and without getting out of bed, order a room service breakfast" :wink:

Seriously the CAF, like most militaries drank the "privatize the support functions and you will save big money" kool aid. The resultant lost flexibility in the force generation pipeline has now come home to roost in a big way. This is classic government " there is never time or money to do the job right but there will always be time and money to do the job over" :roll:

The comment about Treasury Board bean counters thwarting the desires of RCAF senior leadership is spot on. TBS is the poster child for MBA's in short pants who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing :oops:
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2R
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by 2R » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:50 am

The unintended results of decisions made for other reasons.
They used to have all kinds of planes to fly .
The national air guard to the south has many part timers flying some really neat aircraft.
Maybe , we need similar part time opportunities up here ? Although that might require acquisition and investment .
If you do not have aircraft you do not need pilots .
Same for the Navy , no ships, no need for sailors .
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TT1900
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by TT1900 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:47 pm

Not a shortage of military pilots. Much like everywhere else it’s a shortage of experienced pilots, in this case military specific.

The contract is aimed at ex-military QFI’s who would otherwise be heading to Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Malaysia, or possibly China (heard rumours about China, not confirmed). It’s a work around to keep experienced military pilots here and teaching the next generation without having to pay military pilots more. Lots of internal and external factors currently preclude paying military pilots more or reducing queep.

Upside, it may work. Downside, current military guys will quit to do it if it’s a good deal, making the problem worse. My wife and I are discussing it, amongst other options. Would AC pay better? Eventually, assuming the economy stays on track and rapid hiring continues. Would the flying and lifestyle at AC be worse? Absolutely. Would overseas pay better? Absolutely, but at the cost of quality of life.

If the contract is $160K+ I suspect a lot of people will be interested. Anything less and overseas or airlines become preferable for the majority. Will be interesting to see what the offer is.
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Gannet167
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Gannet167 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:27 pm

TT1900 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:47 pm
Would the flying and lifestyle at AC be worse? Absolutely.
You just be joking.
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SAR_YQQ
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by SAR_YQQ » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:35 pm

Gannet167 wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:27 pm
TT1900 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:47 pm
Would the flying and lifestyle at AC be worse? Absolutely.
You just be joking.
I guess it all depends on your current fleet if you are a RCAF Pilot. Any flying gig other than my current posting would be a huge quality of life and quality of flying hit. I’m home every night, the entire Christmas break is off to be with the kids, I can take a month off during the summer if I want, I can deploy overseas and get tax-free salary (if I want). I don’t have a commute longer than 7 mins for work. Lots of pluses to staying in the RCAF - albeit I am sure I will make the slide to AC when I advance too far in this gig and no longer get to fly.
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Gannet167
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Gannet167 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:45 pm

Flying SAR in YQQ was my dream job. I am sure I'd have stayed in if I was there. It is not at all indicative of the bulk of flying jobs in the RCAF. Not for deployments, time on TD, work hours, queef, flying, time off, location etc. You have possibly the best job in NATO.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by Jean-Pierre » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:46 pm

Unfortunately, you can't claim this tax credit anymore. It has been eliminated for 2016.
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SAR_YQQ
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by SAR_YQQ » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:12 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:46 pm
Unfortunately, you can't claim this tax credit anymore. It has been eliminated for 2016.
What tax credit? All named OUTCAN deployments are tax free and have no indication of that decision being reversed.

Gannett - I hear you and agree. Life would be profoundly different at an AMD flying sqn - where they basically live the life of an airline pilot, yet don’t pull in the heavy iron pay cheque. I haven’t been a SAR driver my entire career, I spent time at a CFFTS and some time working behind an Ops desk at an OSS. Regardless, I am living in a Catch-22 situation where I have no motivation to get out and chase pretty FAs on 3 day layovers. The flip side being I am missing out on obtaining seniority in an airline for future earning potential and schedule choice.
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fish4life
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by fish4life » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:14 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:46 pm
Unfortunately, you can't claim this tax credit anymore. It has been eliminated for 2016.
You are thinking of the tax credit civilian pilots got during UN deployments like voyager and R1
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TT1900
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by TT1900 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:07 pm

Gannet167 wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:27 pm
TT1900 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:47 pm
Would the flying and lifestyle at AC be worse? Absolutely.
You just be joking.
Not at all.

Different strokes for different folks and all, but teaching aeros, low-level, and formation is better flying in my mind. I enjoy teaching and my tour in Moose Jaw was great.

For a young guy the short term pain of garbage pay and bottom seniority lifestyle at AC is probably worth it long term. For someone in their 40’s, seeing the number of 20 & 30 year olds recently hired, not so much.

As I said, I’m very interested to see what the publicized offer will be.
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losercruiser
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Re: Shortage of Military pilots

Post by losercruiser » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:51 pm

Who cares about the 20-30 year olds being hired? I really don't understand why these arguments keep being brought up.

Yes, you will never be a 777 or 787 Captain. But in a few years you can have a VERY cushy job as a 777/787 FO, or a mid list NB CA and make well over $200,000 a year working a decent schedule.

If you WANT to teach, that's great. But you really can't compare the jobs, but if you want to work at Air Canada and you are in your 40's you still have 20-25 years left which will be a great career. You just might have to adjust your expectations.

Control what you can, forget about what you can't. And 20-30 year olds senior to you is something you can't control. So forget about it. Look at what you will get out of the career and use that to make your choice.
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