Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

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Yukon867
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Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by Yukon867 »

Earlier today I boarded a plane with the airline Air North in Whitehorse, Yukon destined for Inuvik, Northwest Territories with stops located in Old Crow, Yukon, then Inuvik, Northwest Territories and finally returning to Whitehorse, YT. My destination was Inuvik, NT.

Shortly before landing in Old Crow, YT I fell asleep and awoke after landing with passengers leaving the plane. I asked the flight attendant if I had to get off the plane to which she responded "Well, are you going to Old Crow?" I responded "No, Inuvik", she then told me I did not have to leave the plane. Shortly after departure from Old Crow, YT I fell asleep and was awoken by the single flight attendant asking "Are you going to Inuvik?" to which I replied "Yes", she then proceeded to tell me that we were already flying back to Whitehorse, YT. She then said "Ohhhh that makes sense now" I then said "What'd you mean?", she replied "Well I looked at the manifest and counted heads and there was an extra head, I guess you were it"

After arriving in Whitehorse I then immediately booked a flight with my own money for tomorrow at 9:00AM and booked a hotel as well.

My questions here:

How illegal is this? I mean she has to account for people that correlates with the manifest and report it to the pilots. I know airlines are heavily regulated in Canada but who is to blame here? I know people sleep on planes every day all across the country and I guarantee these folks sleeping are not waking up in Montreal when they were originally destined for Toronto.

Also, isn't this a huge insurance liability? What if this plane went down and I was the only person not on the manifest and my remains were unidentifiable. Everytime I've ever been asleep on a plane I've been woken up by attendants.

I expect they will completely refund my hotel and plane ticket when I speak to a manager of some sort, I have tried today at 4PM but was told no one was available and I was to message their customer service email.

Also, if the pilots were told they had one extra soul on board and the manifest said 25 souls when there was 26 souls, shouldn't it obviously be a no fly till the discrepancies were dealt with??
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laminar
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by laminar »

I can't answer your question.....but wow, I haven't had a sleep like yours in years! I'm jealous
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porcsord
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by porcsord »

Well. I'm going to get my popcorn.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

I’m going to venture a guess that you’re basically SOL. It’s sorta like a bus stop. If you miss your stop, it’s not the transit company’s fault. Maybe in the future set an alarm or something? Or if you’re a really deep sleeper ask the flight attendant to wake you at your station before you nod off. Generally speaking they won’t disturb passengers unless there is some sort of safety issue.
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digits_
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by digits_ »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:27 am
I’m going to venture a guess that you’re basically SOL. It’s sorta like a bus stop. If you miss your stop, it’s not the transit company’s fault. Maybe in the future set an alarm or something? Or if you’re a really deep sleeper ask the flight attendant to wake you at your station before you nod off. Generally speaking they won’t disturb passengers unless there is some sort of safety issue.
It is *nothing* like a bus stop. You don't mess with the pax manifest. If the information is correct, and the crew actually knew the headcount "had an extra head" and didn't investigate, that is a big no-no. Even the more creative 703 operators I've worked for don't mess with the manifest (anymore).

Not sure if the OP is legally entitled to compensation, but if he mentions he's going to talk to TC about the incident, I'm pretty sure he'll get his reimbursement before the end of the phone call...
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by photofly »

It doesn’t say much for their weight and balance control, that’s for sure.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by porcsord »

Yes, legally speaking maybe the weight and balance was off by 220lbs, however, I suspect that:

If you use standard weights on an atr size aircraft, you're already off by more than 220lbs.

And, I don't think the aircraft performance wise or C of G position wise, will care about 220lbs in row 7C.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by GoinVertical »

digits_ wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:27 am
.
Not sure if the OP is legally entitled to compensation, but if he mentions he's going to talk to TC about the incident, I'm pretty sure he'll get his reimbursement before the end of the phone call...
This. If I were Air North I'd be giving reimbursement plus free flight I the future.

The manifest, for all the reasons the OP said and more, needs to be accurate.

It's shocking to me that any crew (of a 705 operation no less) would depart with a headcount that didn't match the manifest.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by digits_ »

porcsord wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:38 am
Yes, legally speaking maybe the weight and balance was off by 220lbs, however, I suspect that:

If you use standard weights on an atr size aircraft, you're already off by more than 220lbs.

And, I don't think the aircraft performance wise or C of G position wise, will care about 220lbs in row 7C.
Weight and balance is only a part of the reason the manifest needs to be correct. The major reason is search and rescue if something happens. Flight tracking is something TC cracks down on very often as well, especially in the northern area where nobody might know you went down unless the company calls it in (in general, this is 705 so most likely flight plan was filed as well which is an extra layer of protection). It's not something to treat lightly.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by av8ts »

porcsord wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:38 am
Yes, legally speaking maybe the weight and balance was off by 220lbs, however, I suspect that:

If you use standard weights on an atr size aircraft, you're already off by more than 220lbs.

And, I don't think the aircraft performance wise or C of G position wise, will care about 220lbs in row 7C.
I don’t think the W and B was off. The fa said they knew they had an extra person on board
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

GoinVertical wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:43 am
digits_ wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:27 am
.
Not sure if the OP is legally entitled to compensation, but if he mentions he's going to talk to TC about the incident, I'm pretty sure he'll get his reimbursement before the end of the phone call...
This. If I were Air North I'd be giving reimbursement plus free flight I the future.

The manifest, for all the reasons the OP said and more, needs to be accurate.

It's shocking to me that any crew (of a 705 operation no less) would depart with a headcount that didn't match the manifest.
Air North customer service is pretty spectacular, probably the best of any 705 company I've flown with in Canada. I have been on flights that were delayed due to an error in the head count, so this isn't the norm. We had the opposite where a person deplaned in Kelowna (on their way to Whitehorse) and didn't realize it until they were outside of the secure area. Took about an hour for them to get sorted out and back through security.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by Heliian »

This has happened a few times up there on those long milk run days. People have slept through them or just plain didn't realize it was their stop.

Haven't heard about it in a while but I believe it's your responsibility. Sure the "manifest" may have been off but it's possible they still filed with the correct number.

You'll need to dig into their tariffs and conditions for better info.
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digits_
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by digits_ »

Heliian wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:16 pm
This has happened a few times up there on those long milk run days. People have slept through them or just plain didn't realize it was their stop.

Haven't heard about it in a while but I believe it's your responsibility. Sure the "manifest" may have been off but it's possible they still filed with the correct number.

You'll need to dig into their tariffs and conditions for better info.
It might be the passenger's responsibility to get of at the right stop, but it is definitely the crew's responsibility to make sure the manifest matches the people on board. If the information provided is correct, the crew screwed up. Doesn't matter how many pax were sleeping.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by co-joe »

GoinVertical wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:43 am
...

It's shocking to me that any crew (of a 705 operation no less) would depart with a headcount that didn't match the manifest.
Me too, they'd never do that where I work. We've actually rechecked every single boarding pass and ID for this exact reason. Oh well we're close enough lets go? :lol:
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by mixturerich »

I remember we had an extra head and the agent said “oh don’t worry about it will fix itself in the system later” and I was like uhhh no we should fix it now. I wonder if the pilots were ever notified properly in this case.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:18 am
It doesn’t say much for their weight and balance control, that’s for sure.
I suppose it depends exactly where the breakdown in communication occurred. I'm not familiar with how they operate with respect to this, but I assume a flight attendant provides the crew with a passenger count form indicating where people are seated by zone so the crew can do a C of G calculation. Assuming this was done, they could have completed an entirely accurate W and B. Dealing with passengers in these small northern communities can sometimes be like herding cats. It's easy to imagine a couple different ways this could get screwed up.
However, whatever happened to personal responsibility? I have zero sympathy for you if, as a fully functional adult, you can't be bothered to get off the plane where you are supposed to.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by goingnowherefast »

I have seen a situation where person X doesn't show up for boarding, and person Y gets on the plane instead. Nobody noticed until several stops later when person X was supposed to deplane yet person Y remained onboard.

Ensuring the manifest is accurate can be a big pain in the ass, but it's gotta be right.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by Beefitarian »

I'm sure nothing will happen but they are not supposed to just flight plan for a number of souls on board then have an extra one. The point of that is if there is a accident and someone wanders off SAR knows to ground search for them.

Flight plan says 9 souls on board and we count 7, where are the other two?

I don't know who you would tattle to but I suspect the crew and possibly the company would be in some form of trouble.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by 747-875 »

Most certainly not "standard practice" at Air North. I've been on multiple Air North flights where we took a delay because the head count didn't match the paperwork so the crew had to stop and figure out why.
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by GhostRider6 »

Headcount and the manifest should match 100%.

With this being said, it’s your responsibility to wakeup at your required stop. I’d have a hard time ( personally) asking for compensation in a case like this personally. However, that’s just me.

I can just see myself asking my employer for a wakeup call. I have a funny feeling how that may go...
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Re: Question regarding, manifests, airlines and regulations. Boarded a plane, fell asleep and missed my stop

Post by ragbagflyer »

digits_ wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:39 am
Weight and balance is only a part of the reason the manifest needs to be correct. The major reason is search and rescue if something happens. Flight tracking is something TC cracks down on very often as well, especially in the northern area where nobody might know you went down unless the company calls it in (in general, this is 705 so most likely flight plan was filed as well which is an extra layer of protection). It's not something to treat lightly.
Head count is more important than actual names when it comes to SAR. With regards to manifests people are quick to get up in arms about knowing who is on an aircraft, but does it really matter? It's convenient for sure, but millions of people get on all forms of mass transit everyday with far less tracking. BC Ferries has ships that can hold over 2000 people and they don't have a list of names of people on board with the exception of the Northern Route, and the head count is only based on passenger self reporting as vehicles board. There's lots of buses and trains out there with little to no data about who's on board. A list of name helps in IDing victims after the fact but that's about it.
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