Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

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cnarberry
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Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by cnarberry »

Good morning all,

One question regarding PICUS time - as far as I understand PICUS should me done with a training captain at a company with a documented PICUS program but can PICUS be logged during a training flight such as undergoing line indoc?

Please correct me if I'm wrong - thank you.
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by flyingcanuck »

How can you be undergoing training and also be the PIC as an FO...?
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digits_
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by digits_ »

cnarberry wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:22 am
Good morning all,

One question regarding PICUS time - as far as I understand PICUS should me done with a training captain at a company with a documented PICUS program but can PICUS be logged during a training flight such as undergoing line indoc?

Please correct me if I'm wrong - thank you.
I'd be highly surprised if any training captain would sign that off... I'd be ashamed to even ask the guy really... :roll:
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MOAB
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by MOAB »

Usually a company will have a written PICUS policy/program. From what I have seen, once you are eligible for the program you can have your logbook entry signed off by the captain of that flight if he agrees to let you be PIC/under supervision.

I don't think line indoc would qualify.
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cnarberry
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by cnarberry »

Right but the CARS and company make no mention of a) the qualifications of the supervisory pilot and b) the nature of the underlying flight. So question if the pilot even has to be a training captain which is why I bring this up.
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digits_
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by digits_ »

cnarberry wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:23 pm
Right but the CARS and company make no mention of a) the qualifications of the supervisory pilot and b) the nature of the underlying flight. So question if the pilot even has to be a training captain which is why I bring this up.
The CARs don't define who has to sign you off (or that you need to record it anywhere, but that seems trivial) but companies can have additional rules (eg only training captains can sign you off etc).
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MOAB
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by MOAB »

Digits is correct, atleast from what I have seen.

My company for instance has it set up that any captain can sign off on PICUS, not just training captains.

A training captain has to agree to sign off on the initial training that grants a FO the opportunity to do PICUS, make sure you have enough skill to act as PIC, and then your good for PICUS.
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digits_
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by digits_ »

My company didn't require any training for PICUS, neither for the signee or the signer of the document. It varies.

I've never heard of any FO being signed off for PICUS flights during line indoc though.
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North Shore
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by North Shore »

I've always worked for companies that hired people with PIC, so they didn't have to worry about PICUS... :roll:
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altiplano
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by altiplano »

Yet another reason this program should be tossed in the heap of history.

Not even checked out on the plane as an FO and logging PIC? Give me a break.
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by A Regulator »

That program is in the general aviation regs (400) series and it is the company that has to set up how they are going to comply, then it should be in the COM
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by jakeandelwood »

altiplano wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:20 pm
Yet another reason this program should be tossed in the heap of history.

Not even checked out on the plane as an FO and logging PIC? Give me a break.
That right there sums it up as being a ridiculous program. Either you are PIC or you are not PIC.
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shabadoo
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by shabadoo »

Picus isn’t actual PIC time. It’s logged as dual and you still sit right seat. The Captain is still PIC. When you apply for the ATPL you can get credit if don’t have enough actual PIC time. BUT you can only use 50% and up to 100 hours.
So - If you need 100 hours of pic for the ATPL you have to actually do 200 hours of picus. You can also only credit Picus that was done within the 12 months of applying for the ATPL. IMO it was a bandaid solution developed to help people with low time due to the state of the industry, but nothing beats actual PIC time.
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altiplano
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by altiplano »

Of course it isn't actual PIC.

Easy solution, go get a PIC job and an ATPL before you go to the airlines.
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ayseven
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by ayseven »

I never understood the issue. Are there no jobs doing fire patrols or pipelines? Failing that, why can't people just buy or rent an airplane with a friend or two and just do it - take a few long trips and have fun. I am not trying to be a smart aleck. It isn't glamourous no, but then again, absolutely none if my flying has ever been that.
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by C-GGGQ »

Fire patrol and pipeline aren't going to low time pilots anymore. People frown on paying for type ratings so why would renting be different. If you can find a school with the availability to let you head out on an extended trip with a plane. Times have changed considerably.
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kaoandy1125
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by kaoandy1125 »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:41 pm
Fire patrol and pipeline aren't going to low time pilots anymore. People frown on paying for type ratings so why would renting be different. If you can find a school with the availability to let you head out on an extended trip with a plane. Times have changed considerably.
I don’t know about fire patrol, but pipeline jobs are definitely still going to low time pilots.
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ehv8oar
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by ehv8oar »

Done properly a PICUS program can be quite beneficial, but only if it's done properly and not just as a pen whipping exercise to get someone with very little actual PIC time their ATPL requirements.

As said above it'll depend on your company as to who has to be the Captain in order to log the PICUS time. I'm pretty sure though that if you put it in your logbook that you're doing Picus whilst doing indoc training then a TC inspector will not sign it off.
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by Canoehead »

shabadoo wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:25 am
Picus isn’t actual PIC time. It’s logged as dual and you still sit right seat. The Captain is still PIC. When you apply for the ATPL you can get credit if don’t have enough actual PIC time. BUT you can only use 50% and up to 100 hours.
So - If you need 100 hours of pic for the ATPL you have to actually do 200 hours of picus. You can also only credit Picus that was done within the 12 months of applying for the ATPL. IMO it was a bandaid solution developed to help people with low time due to the state of the industry, but nothing beats actual PIC time.
Plus, it has to be hours logged during PF legs.
So it’s probably up to 400 hours to make your 100 hours of accredited time, unless you’re flying with the sympathetic types who will let you fly every leg (not me).

For the OP; no, it’s not permissible to log during indoc.
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Heliian
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by Heliian »

Picus is for companies that have slow captain turnover so the the FOs can actually get somewhere eventually. Also helps with other operations that may not require 2 pilots that do use 2 pilots.

No, your indoc time doesn't count. That doesn't matter, just keep a job long enough and get the hours ffs. No one cares that you are a few hours less right now. 100-200 hr gap between candidates is sfa.
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shabadoo
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by shabadoo »

Canoehead wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:59 pm
shabadoo wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:25 am
Picus isn’t actual PIC time. It’s logged as dual and you still sit right seat. The Captain is still PIC. When you apply for the ATPL you can get credit if don’t have enough actual PIC time. BUT you can only use 50% and up to 100 hours.
So - If you need 100 hours of pic for the ATPL you have to actually do 200 hours of picus. You can also only credit Picus that was done within the 12 months of applying for the ATPL. IMO it was a bandaid solution developed to help people with low time due to the state of the industry, but nothing beats actual PIC time.
Plus, it has to be hours logged during PF legs.
So it’s probably up to 400 hours to make your 100 hours of accredited time, unless you’re flying with the sympathetic types who will let you fly every leg (not me).

For the OP; no, it’s not permissible to log during indoc.
Untrue. You can most definitely log PNF time as Picus.
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Canoehead
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by Canoehead »

shabadoo wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:28 pm
Untrue. You can most definitely log PNF time as Picus.
Read the CASS.
You can only log PICUS as PF.
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co-joe
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by co-joe »

At my last company, it was simply a box you checked off, and that's it. The FO gets PICUS and you get PIC. Literally no training has to take place, it's weird. In my day PICUS was you had a left seat PPC and line indoc and flew from the left seat, and signed the logbook, but got half the money.
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shabadoo
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Re: Logging Pilot In Command Under Supervision Time

Post by shabadoo »

Canoehead wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:16 pm
shabadoo wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:28 pm
Untrue. You can most definitely log PNF time as Picus.
Read the CASS.
You can only log PICUS as PF.
Oops I stand corrected. Cheers.
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