Offering Flights with a PPL

[MisterWolf]

Hello AVcan users, I'm a long time user but first time poster to this forum. I have a questions I'm looking for some clarification on, hoping this is the right place for it.

I'm a private pilot working towards my CPL and am currently in the time building phase, I'm wondering if it would be legal for me to put an ad on Kijiji offering flights for sightseeing, while only charging for the cost of fuel, insurance and maintenance of course.

I haven't been able to find a direct answer in the CAR's or maybe I missed it, those I've asked have been split in their answers but from what I understand from my CPL study it would be allowed as long as there was no profit involved, but I need to be completely positive before doing this.

I appreciate everyone's input and time. Thanks!

[Rowdy]

Transport has a habit of watching craigslist and Kijiji for just such things...

If I were you, I wouldn't be doing that at all. Taking up some friends and splitting the cost? Sure.. advertising flight seeing? Nope.

[Capt. Underpants]

I agree with Rowdy, tread very carefully. As you would be using it to build time, TC would take the view that you are receiving a "benefit" from your advertised service. The other side of it is insurance. By advertising a service, it could be argued that you would require insurance as if it were a business venture.

[final28]

Straight from the CARs:

Part IV — Personnel Licensing and Training (continued)
Subpart 1 — Flight Crew Permits, Licences and Ratings (continued)
Division VI — Private Pilot Licence (continued)
Aeroplanes and Helicopters — Reimbursement of Costs Incurred in respect of a Flight
[SOR/2005-320, s. 4(F)]

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

(3) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from the holder’s employer for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is employed on a full-time basis by the employer for purposes other than flying;

(b) conducts the flight on the employer’s business and the flight is incidental to the execution of the holder’s duties; and

(c) receives a reimbursement that

(i) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and that does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, or

(ii) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from a charitable, not-for-profit or public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization if the reimbursement

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(5) The holder of a private pilot licence who is a farmer, as defined in section 700.01, may conduct aerial work involving the dispersal of products for agricultural purposes for hire or reward if the holder

(a) does not hold an air operator certificate;

(b) owns the aircraft that is used to disperse the products;

(c) has at least 150 hours of flight time as pilot-in-command, including at least 25 hours of flight time in the type of aircraft being used;

(d) ensures that no more than the minimum number of crew members needed to disperse the products is on board the aircraft;

(e) ensures that the dispersal takes place within 25 miles of the centre of the holder’s farm; and

(f) ensures that no dispersal is conducted within a control zone without the authority of the appropriate air traffic control unit.

SOR/2005-320, s. 4

[ayseven]

Obviously, as stated, the answer is "no" for a whole bunch of reasons. What you CAN do, is quietly advertise by word of mouth - NOT Kijiji or anywhere like that, but in person, to your actual friends - not strangers who happen to be hanging around the airport or anything - and tell them you will fly them around to wherever they want for the cost of fuel and rental. I saved myself a lot of training expense by doing this. Sell yourself as a sightseeing service, so they will get to wherever they want in style, and comfort (as comfortable as a C172 is...) with amazing views of the countryside, one very small step away from the jet set.

[digits_]

Sell yourself as a sightseeing service, so they will get to wherever they want in style, and comfort (as comfortable as a C172 is...) with amazing views of the countryside, one very small step away from the jet set.

That sounds about as illegal as the original request. It is vitally important that your pax understand you do *not* offer a sightseeing service, as you are not licensed to do so.

Sure, take your friends for a spin, have them pay part of the rental costs, but don't ever give people the idea you are offering a service.

[Bede]

This guy got a $1000 fine for doing exactly what you're proposing.

https://decisions.tatc.gc.ca/tatc/tatc/ ... 3/index.do

[photofly]

while only charging for the cost of fuel, insurance and maintenance of course.

You can only be reimbursed if (401.28)(2)(c) you "carr[y] passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; "

Otherwise, hire and reward doesn't have to involve profit: it's defined:
"hire or reward means any payment, consideration, gratuity or benefit, directly or indirectly charged, demanded, received or collected by any person for the use of an aircraft; (rémunération)"

So any kind of reimbursement at all, is hire and reward.

[rookiepilot]

Obviously, as stated, the answer is "no" for a whole bunch of reasons. What you CAN do, is quietly advertise by word of mouth - NOT Kijiji or anywhere like that, but in person, to your actual friends - not strangers who happen to be hanging around the airport or anything - and tell them you will fly them around to wherever they want for the cost of fuel and rental. I saved myself a lot of training expense by doing this. Sell yourself as a sightseeing service, so they will get to wherever they want in style, and comfort (as comfortable as a C172 is...) with amazing views of the countryside, one very small step away from the jet set.

Don't do this.

[PilotDAR]

Sell yourself as a sightseeing service, so they will get to wherever they want in style, and comfort (as comfortable as a C172 is...) with amazing views of the countryside, one very small step away from the jet set.

That's very bad advice.

What does the owner of the plane you are flying think you are doing with it? Does what you are doing/propose to do conform to the insurance arranged for the plane, and the agreement you have made to use the plane? If not, and something happened, you could be left with the cost of a claim.

TC has used the phrase "publicly available" to draw a line between a PPL carrying a passenger incidental to the flight, and a commercial service. If a person you do not know can find you to fly them, and they pay you anything, you have obviously offered a service which is publicly available, and TC will think poorly about this. If you're working toward a CPL, and presumably to impress prospective employers, would you want a violation of PPL privileges to be on your pilot record? What a poor way to start a career!

If you are going to accept money for a flight, conform to the quoted regulation, don't advertise, or "sell yourself", and for heaven's sake, don't discuss it on a public forum!

[kevind]

If you say, I will take you flying when and where you want...not allowed.

If you say, I am going flying, who wants to come along..allowed

[Pilotdaddy]

If you say, I will take you flying when and where you want...not allowed.

If you say, I am going flying, who wants to come along..allowed

What about this...

Me: I'm going to Muskoka, who wants to come?
Them: Oh, too bad I want to go to Orillia.
Me: Ok, let's go to Orillia! (For the purposes of time building, destination doesn't matter)

Is that allowed?

[photofly]

If you, as a PPL, want to fly someone to Orillia (or anywhere else they want to go) that's fine. You just can't receive money for doing so.

These are the easiest rules in the whole book not to break. Don't offer charter or air-taxi services without the appropriate licences and paperwork. It's really that simple.

[digits_]

If you say, I will take you flying when and where you want...not allowed.

If you say, I am going flying, who wants to come along..allowed

What about this...

Me: I'm going to Muskoka, who wants to come?
Them: Oh, too bad I want to go to Orillia.
Me: Ok, let's go to Orillia! (For the purposes of time building, destination doesn't matter)

Is that allowed?

No, if one has the chance to visit the Muskoka airport, one should always do so.




Seriously though:
If no money changes hands: absolutely.
If money is being exchanged, it is a grey area. Is the passenger incidental to the flight? You were going flying anyway, but you did change the destination upon the passenger's request. Strictly speaking, it is most likely not allowed.

[kevind]

What about this...

Me: I'm going to Muskoka, who wants to come?
Them: Oh, too bad I want to go to Orillia.
Me: Ok, let's go to Orillia! (For the purposes of time building, destination doesn't matter)

Is that allowed?

I think that comes does down the interpretation of incidental to to the flight. If they don't split costs, I don't think it matters, unless it is the only reason for the flight.

[Heliian]

Incidental to the flight is a key piece. The other thing is that you CAN receive reimbursement for split costs but you CANNOT ask for reimbursement.

That attached case above is a pretty good read, the guy obviously was selling rides.

[digits_]

What about this...

Me: I'm going to Muskoka, who wants to come?
Them: Oh, too bad I want to go to Orillia.
Me: Ok, let's go to Orillia! (For the purposes of time building, destination doesn't matter)

Is that allowed?

I think that comes does down the interpretation of incidental to to the flight. If they don't split costs, I don't think it matters, unless it is the only reason for the flight.

There is nothing that prohibits you from flying a stranger from A to B at the stranger's request, if (s)he doesn't pay you.

[ayseven]

I think people need to read more carefully: telling your actual friends, and not strangers you meet at the airport, is very different to offering a sightseeing service to the general public. This is not illegal. If you say you are going, do they want to come along and pay a share? ... well, they aren't going to pay because you are going anyways. Taking your actual friends for rides and having them pitch in is NOT illegal.

[PilotDAR]

The Transport Canada inspectors who read this must just sit back and laugh! A number of pilots, who instead of just quietly go about their flying, enter into protracted discussion about trying to find exactly the point up to which something is legal! I recall an informal policy: "If you think you need to ask, the answer is probably no."

Do not find yourself on the wrong side of the rules, having solicited money for piloting if you're a PPL. Particularly don't do it in someone else's plane, you might not like what the owner and insurer say if something goes wrong!

[jakeandelwood]

This guy got a $1000 fine for doing exactly what you're proposing.

https://decisions.tatc.gc.ca/tatc/tatc/ ... 3/index.do

Jesus! That's all the fine he got? Demonstrating forced landings by actually shutting down the engine? What a moron.