Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

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Chitak
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Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by Chitak »

Hello to all the aviators in the forum,
This is my first post in the forum and hopefully won't be the last.
I took a break when I was halfway done with my commercial training couple years back. During this time I lost my medical and finally got re-issued with a class 1 medical again but with certain restrictions. The restriction simply put is "with or as co-pilot". I am listing the conditions down here.

>must be accompanied by another pilot with no medical restriction
>the accompanying pilot must have had incapacitation training
>a/c must have dual controls
>a suitable means of restraint, to prevent interference with the flight controls, must be available in the event that you become incapacitated
>if you act as the pilot of an aircraft for hire or reward, must inform the employer of the above conditions

I would love to continue my training and hopefully get a job somewhere in the future but I am trying to do what makes sense here. Is it truly impossible to find a job with the given conditions above ? I really need some insight regarding this matter. Looking for real life examples and honest answers rather than politically correct ones. And please do not reply I have restriction for corrected vision and I put on my glasses and never had an issue so far.

The cfi s of the two training units I went to see to talk about this medical restriction acted like the oncologists telling me that no reason to try chemo as I do not have a chance to survive anyways. I think there is a huge misconception regarding this restriction at the training unit level. It is making me loose hope thinking that the airlines, charters may have the same attitude towards it. I think it would have been a different issue if I was a seasoned pilot and got this restriction while I was employed.

Despite the belief of the cfi s, I have never been incapacitated in my life. It is clear that I do have a higher chance of incapacitation than the general public ratio which doesn't mean that a pilot with no restriction on their category 1 will never be incapacitated. There is always a higher risk associated with solo flying, or sending a student out before their first solo with an instructor rather than having two pilots present.

Legally I hold cat 1 medical and as long as I meet the requirements listed, I should be able to fly commercially but I would like to know what actually happens in the industry if possible. Any replies or PM s would be much appreciated.

Thanks you all
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BushRatt
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by BushRatt »

It’s a good question. We hired an individual with the same restrictions you mentioned about 5-6 years ago. It was easy for us, as they had the qualifications required. All of our flights where conducted in a 2 crew environment, so it wasn’t much of a restriction. (703-704 operation)
I hope that helps.
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derateNO
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by derateNO »

There's more than a few pilots at AC and Jazz with this requirement. However I believe they were all on staff before having the change. Your best bet is a smaller 703/704 or corporate job.
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ant_321
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by ant_321 »

I do know a few people who have that restriction on their license but I believe they were all at their current employers when that happened. With the difficulties many small operators are having finding pilots I don’t see you having an issue getting a job at one of those. Moving up the ladder in your career may be difficult.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by AuxBatOn »

Can an employer discriminate on the grounds of medical restrictions/conditions that have no impact on their operations?
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derateNO
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by derateNO »

Well it may, because they need to make sure you're always with someone without restrictions.

I'm pretty sure AC was sued a number of years back for enforcing rules above and beyond the Cat1 requirements and lost. If the regulator says you're good, they can't really say otherwise.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by AuxBatOn »

derateNO wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:43 pm Well it may, because they need to make sure you're always with someone without restrictions.

I'm pretty sure AC was sued a number of years back for enforcing rules above and beyond the Cat1 requirements and lost. If the regulator says you're good, they can't really say otherwise.

With or as co-pilot means just that. Both crew can have the same restriction.
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derateNO
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by derateNO »

The OP said "with no medical restrictions" that's pretty vague. Does eyesight count? What if the other person also needs a second pilot? Does that mean no one can go to the bathroom?

Just spitballing but you can see how a company might look at it.
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L39Guy
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by L39Guy »

I have been personally involved with someone that had a Category 1R medical with similar restrictions. He was able to complete his ratings (commercial, multi, IFR, etc.) then get hired at a 705 operator so there is nothing preventing you from pursuing your flying career with your condition. There are pilots flying commercially with diabetes, heart issues, etc with restrictions on their licenses. The only issue would be the one regarding "no medical restrictions" of your fellow pilot - it is unclear what that means. Does it mean someone with the same condition for example?

If you need further details PM me.
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JBI
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by JBI »

I have that restriction on my medical and am gainfully employed as a 705 Captain.

In theory, an employer cannot discriminate against someone unless doing so would be undue hardship.

So, for example, in the flying sense, at my airline, we always have two crew operations, have mandatory pilot incapacitation training and should harness locks. It is not undue hardship to hire a pilot with a two crew restriction.

But, for somewhere like a flight school or small float plane operator that always flies with only one pilot, it could definitely be considered undue hardship for an operator to hire a person who can only fly with two crew.

In your situation where you are still in the process of training, I would say it is possible, but will be extremely tough to have a career as a pilot. You are correct, when you get to the airlines it's a different story. For me, it's not a big deal I just can't be a line indoc Captain. But when you're starting out in the industry, a lot of the opportunities available to low time pilots are single pilot options: instructing, aerial survey, skydiving, glider towing, floats, single engine charters all would not be available to you.

I don't want to say you should or shouldn't do it. I've spent the better part of two years jumping through Transport Canada's hoops to even get the "as or with co-pilot" restriction even though multiple medical professionals have outlined that I'm completely safe to fly even without the restriction. I am very glad that I persisted and pushed. I love flying and even in the crazy days, I really enjoy coming to work. But I wouldn't have wished that process on anyone.

You may or may not have more TC Civil Aviation Medicine issues, but regardless, it will be a challenge to not only finish your ratings without flying solo (I think you can still gain PIC hours) but then also be very limited for the job hunt with only two crew operations. On top of that, many smaller bush operators are not as sophisticated as 705 airlines and can't even spell Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms let alone understand it's concepts. Even if an operator said "I am not hiring you because you have a multi-crew restriction" it would be a drawn out process to challenge that through the Human Rights Tribunal. Don't get me wrong, it is still 100% possible. I know a few people who have had a successful career only flying two crew aircraft, but that was more just circumstance as opposed to necessity.

Just to clarify derateNO's thoughts (which don't get me wrong, are valid questions)
derateNO wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:35 pm The OP said "with no medical restrictions" that's pretty vague. Does eyesight count? What if the other person also needs a second pilot? Does that mean no one can go to the bathroom?

Just spitballing but you can see how a company might look at it.
No medical restrictions just means you can't have two pilots with the same "as or with co-pilot" restrictions. The other pilot is allowed to use the bathroom (although that's a mean trick I could try sometime :twisted: :lol: ) - making sure that you don't schedule two "as or with co-pilot" restricted pilots together, in Canada, is not Undue Hardship. (As an aside, the US does not have this option because Continental Airlines sued the FAA and won for this exact reason -but in Canada it's different due to the Canadian Charter and the Human Rights Act - making a small adjustment to scheduling software isn't UNDUE hardship).

Lots of different factors in your case. But if I were in your position, I'd be having a very serious look at my different options and alternatives moving forward. Especially now that it seems there may be a hopefully short, but potentially long, industry slow down.

Don't hesitate to reach out at anytime.

Cheers!
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by Capt. Underpants »

AuxBatOn wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:49 pm
With or as co-pilot means just that. Both crew can have the same restriction.
I'm not sure if you meant what you said, but it's clearly stated on all restricted medicals that the other crew member's medical must be unrestricted.
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dialdriver
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by dialdriver »

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Larry Putterman
Board Director | Advisory Board Member
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Chitak
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by Chitak »

derateNO wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:43 pm Well it may, because they need to make sure you're always with someone without restrictions.

I'm pretty sure AC was sued a number of years back for enforcing rules above and beyond the Cat1 requirements and lost. If the regulator says you're good, they can't really say otherwise.
I didn't want to put in the exact wording for "must be accompanied by another pilot with no medical restriction" on the original post since it was lengthy. The original text reads :

"You must be accompanied by another pilot who holds an unrestricted, medically valid pilot licence with the appropriate category. class and rating for the intended flight."

What I understand as well is that I can't fly with someone who has the same type of restriction but of course the letter had to be vague. If it came down to it I could ask for further clarification on this specific condition.

I have heard of cases through friends and read on some other forums that under EASA regulations a pilot with OML ( operational multi-pilot limitation ) is not paired together with another pilot with OML. So I assumed this is what TC meant by it.

Thank you all who spend the time to put in their thought on this issue. I appreciate it a lot.
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hithere
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by hithere »

JBI,
You said:
I just can't be a line indoc Captain.
Why on earth is that? I have a “with or as copilot” restriction and I AM a line indoc Captain.
The only issue that would ever present itself is if the line indoc candidate also had a “with or as copilot” restriction. This is rare and if it happened, crew planning would just pair he/she with a line indoc Captain that did not have my restriction
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derateNO
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by derateNO »

Great idea throwing a new 500 hour pilot with no time on type in a plane with someone who could become incapacitated.
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Here's my thoughts - if I had your restrictions, I would not pursue a career in aviation as a pilot. I would have pursued a career as a military pilot, were it not for my vision.

As a 704/705 pilot, you'll do just fine - but getting there is a whole other beast. I can only speak about this in relation to my plan, which is to fly bush for several years, which requires single pilot operations. I just can't envision any somewhat flexible career path that excludes single pilot operations for you while you work your way up, sorry.

I think time building and type certifying will be especially difficult for you with these restrictions. Until you break into multi pilot operations, it will be especially difficult for you, and your options will be extremely limited - but I don't think it's impossible.

Whether or not your restrictions are fair is irrelevant. They are real, and they are a barrier. If you do this, you'd better be damned sure you're willing to sacrifice for it, because it won't be easy. (Again, I'm not saying it's impossible)

Signed,

Random Dude On The Internet.
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by Capt. Underpants »

derateNO wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:04 pm Great idea throwing a new 500 hour pilot with no time on type in a plane with someone who could become incapacitated.
That's ridiculous. Most pilots who become incapacitated don't start their day with a restricted medical certificate in their flight bag.
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hithere
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by hithere »

Exactly, those with restricted medical are probably the most vigilant about their health and being fit for duty. It’s the overweight, smoker skipper with cholesterol filled arteries and doesn’t know it that it just going to croak in flight one day
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JBI
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by JBI »

hithere wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:58 am Exactly, those with restricted medical are probably the most vigilant about their health and being fit for duty. It’s the overweight, smoker skipper with cholesterol filled arteries and doesn’t know it that it just going to croak in flight one day
+1
hithere wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:01 pm JBI,
You said:
I just can't be a line indoc Captain.
Why on earth is that? I have a “with or as copilot” restriction and I AM a line indoc Captain.
The only issue that would ever present itself is if the line indoc candidate also had a “with or as copilot” restriction. This is rare and if it happened, crew planning would just pair he/she with a line indoc Captain that did not have my restriction
I may be mistaken! Thanks for the response. My medical restriction contains the restriction that the other pilot "holds an unrestricted, medically valid pilot licence with the appropriate category, class an type rating". On first pass I thought that meant a pilot that is fully qualified and has passed line indoc, but in further review, I think your interpretation may be correct.

Cheers
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dialdriver
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Re: Is it possible to get hired with Restricted Medical "with or as co-pilot" category 1?

Post by dialdriver »

I have it in writing from TC that I may provide commercial pilot training to a private pilot, provided he has all the normal qualifications to fly without me - ie; holds an unrestricted, medically valid pilot licence with the appropriate category, class an type rating.

I would of course need a valid instructor rating.

Transport Canada also told me that pilots with my medical condition have an impeccable safety record, with no incidents in the 20 years it has been approved for a restricted license. That cant be said for the general pilot population.

Ignorance is the real restriction.
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