Did older metros have the required IFR Equip??

[Dronepiper]

Here is a question:

This is what is written in the CARS for IFR required Equipment:

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

There are a lot of aircraft that have just one GPS, but of course multiple ILS/VOR Heads and ADFS. Given this rule above, are you technically even legally allowed to operate off an airway if you only have 1 GPS?

If your GPS failed while flying GPS direct (Off an Airway), you would not be on an airway, and then technically you are not allowed to navigate IFR off the airway with just a VOR or ADF? Am I missing something?

[lownslow]

Am I missing something?

Yes, there is no requirement to navigate solely on airways here. I’ve done long IFR legs off airways without GPS (on the way to the shop to get one installed) by figuring out reception range at my planned altitude and just hopscotching direct between convenient VORs. I hear going off airways isn’t recommended in China but in North America it’s no big deal.

Another way to look at it from a redundancy perspective is that a GPS failure isn’t always going to be at the receiver end. A solar storm could screw with the satellite constellation or government bodies could jam the signal. That’s not as far fetched as it sounds, over the last couple years the US military has done tests of GPS denial equipment that led to far-reaching (and appropriately NOTAM’ed) GPS unavailability. In these cases you could have six GPS receivers and get nothing.

Last before I shut up, if they haven’t started already you’ll soon see Nav Canada slightly change their terminology and attitude regarding navigation equipment. They’re looking at it from the provider’s point of view but the idea is the same. Up until now they’ve operated on the principle of redundancy, that is to say that if a navaid goes U/S there will be another one close enough to work with. Now that they’re decommissioning ground-based navaids they’re moving to a principle of recovery.. When they’re done their program of shutting off VORs and you have a GPS failure you may not have the navaids available to continue as planned but there will be something near enough to use to get on the ground somewhere.

[ant_321]

I’ve done plenty of flights with a GPS u/s. We were filed xxx radial until able direct xxx. There isn’t a requirement to stay on an airway. Also, I believe if you are staying in radar coverage then vectors can be used as your back up way to navigate.

[jakeandelwood]

Here you are, RNAV equipped with out a GPS.

[Heliian]

Yes, you don't need multiple gps.

Waas is nice though.

[BTD]

Here is a question:

This is what is written in the CARS for IFR required Equipment:

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

There are a lot of aircraft that have just one GPS, but of course multiple ILS/VOR Heads and ADFS. Given this rule above, are you technically even legally allowed to operate off an airway if you only have 1 GPS?

If your GPS failed while flying GPS direct (Off an Airway), you would not be on an airway, and then technically you are not allowed to navigate IFR off the airway with just a VOR or ADF? Am I missing something?

There is no requirement to maintain your filed route. If in controlled airspace as mentioned, request vectors or request clearance to the nearest nav aid, pick up an airway, or get cleared off airways via another method. If uncontrolled, broadcast intentions and proceed to a nav aid to pick up an airway or air route or go direct something in range.

There is no requirement to be on an airway with or without a gps as long as you were cleared the route.

[rigpiggy]

one thing I have an issue with is these older aircraft that to me don't have a separate battery backup 3rd AI. I believe this was contributory to the Carson Metro North of YVR a few years back(yes we know the captain was impaired)

[BTD]

one thing I have an issue with is these older aircraft that to me don't have a separate battery backup 3rd AI. I believe this was contributory to the Carson Metro North of YVR a few years back(yes we know the captain was impaired)

Neither does the 737.

[rigpiggy]

do you mean it doesn't have a 3rd AI, or the power behind it? The older ones may have that setup, but the ones I have JS'd on have stby Att power. Capts prestart procedures I believe check stby inst

[BTD]

do you mean it doesn't have a 3rd AI, or the power behind it? The older ones may have that setup, but the ones I have JS'd on have stby Att power. Capts prestart procedures I believe check stby inst

The Max power source is the battery. The ISFD powers up with it. There is no reference to in the AOM to a separate power source besides the battery bus. The EMJ has a separate power source if I recall.

Edit: Just double checked. Battery bus powers the standby. There are separate pitot static ports etc. but power is off the battery.

[VSF]

Metro 3's STBY AI is vacuum powered as far as I remember. The G950 equipped aircraft could be different.

[rigpiggy]

metro 2 was under FAR3 vs FAR23