How damage history affects the price?

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amaksr
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How damage history affects the price?

Post by amaksr »

I am thinking to buy C172 that had a damage history few decades ago, but currently it's in annual and flying. It's price seems a bit lower compared to other similar aircrafts, apparently due to DH, at least in part.
My question is how DH generally affect the price, what types of DH can be ignored, and what not?
In car world 100% of cars would have some DH after 20 years, and as long as damage repaired properly there is no real difference from the owner perspective. Same applies to the houses.
In GA rules are stricter, all repairs need to be inspected and signed off, so DH should not in theory affect reliability or price at all.
Or I am wrong?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

As a general rule no damage history is the starting point for pricing. Damage history may or may not significantly affect pricing as a lot depends on what kind of damage and how it was repaired.

With respect to C 172's and especially C 182's, repairs to the firewall are pretty common. If well done they should not deter you from buying the aircraft and I would suggest not warrant much of a discount on the price. Conversely significant un-repaired or poorly repaired firewall damage can easily result in a 15 K repair bill and so would mean you would have to have commensurate price drop to even consider this aircraft

The bottom line is pretty much any damage can be repaired. I know of one aircraft that was very badly damaged in a landing accident. About the only straight piece of metal in it was the cover to the ashtray. It was totally rebuilt as it was bought new by the grandfather of the owner and had been in the family its whole life. Economically the rebuild did not really make sense but i get the emotional rational. The repairs were very well done and in some respects it is in better shape then when it was spat off the assembly line in the days when the big 2 were building 5 new airplanes a day. Personally I would have no problem buying this airplane.

As always a good pre buy is important. Repairs poorly performed even thought they meet the bare minimum standard for airworthiness would be cause for second thoughts. One area where a prebuy can be literally a life saver for you is to catch undocumented repairs. At the risk of generalizing my experience is that this is a real problem with airplanes that came from the US and were never used commercially
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boeingboy
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by boeingboy »

As always a good pre buy is important. Repairs poorly performed even thought they meet the bare minimum standard for airworthiness would be cause for second thoughts. One area where a prebuy can be literally a life saver for you is to catch undocumented repairs. At the risk of generalizing my experience is that this is a real problem with airplanes that came from the US and were never used commercially
I'd add that that was also true of a lot of repairs done in Canada before the early eighties (generally). While not undocumented - I've seen my fair share of "xxx damaged" "xxx repaired". That being said - if the repair is inspected to conform to some sort of standard and it has 3000 hrs on it since - It should not be an issue. Airplanes that are 40 - 60 years old are not going to have perfect records, and record keeping in the 60's and 70's in Canada looked a lot like they still do in the states. It was really just generalized. Thankfully - our standards have come up in the last 30 years or so. Really - damage history properly repaired should not matter - but to some, it does.

I will also mention that there seems to be no cut and dry when it comes to aircraft pricing. Pricing is all over the map with no continuity. Each model has a price which - if past - will never sell no matter what's done to it or what's damaged on it. That doesn't stop some from pricing it out of this world and trying to recoup what they put in it, it also doesn't stop some buyer from trying to steal it from you either. Take an objective look at it all and have an independent inspection done (pre-buy) and try to negotiate a fair price.

It all boils down to what someone is willing to pay. If the owner is asking to much for you - then walk away no matter how much it tugs at your heartstrings. There will always be another one come up soon that suits your needs.
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ahramin
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by ahramin »

The whole "damage history / no damage distory" binary is a complete red herring. The history doesn't matter. Take a brand new aircraft, leave it outside in Florida for five years without flying, and you have a pile of junk parts with no damage history. You want to know the present state of the aircraft. This includes all repaired damage, undocumented damage, undocumented corrosion, engine status, age and status of all hoses, any fuel leaks, the list goes on and on. The only way to hope of finding out the status of the aircraft is to have a very knowledgeable and thorough AME go through the aircraft. Usually this is done in three stages: paperwork, engine, then airframe. This way you aren't paying for a complete pre purchase inspection for an aircraft with paperwork problems or a engine in need of an overhaul. Just grabbing any local AME and asking them to check out the aircraft without giving them specific instructions will usually result in them doing a quick annual inspection and telling you the aircraft is airworthy. That may be useful for the 1% of shady aircraft sellers trying to flog something unflyable with a "current" annual, but it won't tell you the status of the aircraft from a resale value point of view.
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boeingboy
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by boeingboy »

Good notes about the local vs knowledgeable guy Ahramin, and your right about current state vs history. Problem is though a lot of people will ask if there is any damage history and if the answer is yes - they hang up the phone. It's some kind of mental stigma that in reality should have no real bearing on the price or the serviceability.

I would also note that if you find undocumented damage - it's possible that it was not undocumented intentionally. If parts were replaced at some point...say a wing or a stab...and that part was repaired in it's previous life - that would be documented in the aircraft logs it was previously attached to and may no longer be available. Again - That's why a pre-buy and an evaluation of the repair are important, and not necessarily a death sentence to your purchase.
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boeingboy
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by boeingboy »

What year is it and how much does he want?
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ahramin
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by ahramin »

boeingboy wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 11:24 amProblem is though a lot of people will ask if there is any damage history and if the answer is yes - they hang up the phone.
That's not a problem. Getting rid of the tire kickers and dreamers early on will make the whole process a lot easier. If you have a well maintained aircraft with good documentation it's going to be easy to sell.

Last year I explained to a seller that he should have online copies of all maintenance logs going back x years, oil monitoring history, and engine monitor logs. He told me that he'd had 50 phone calls about his aircraft and no one had asked for that stuff. I asked him how many of those callers bought the plane.

Last time I checked it was still for sale. When it comes time to sell, you can easily spend ten hours a week talking to dreamers, but the only one you actually want to talk to is the one who will buy the plane. Anyone searching for a great deal on a plane with "no damage history" is not going to have the cash it takes to pay market value for a plane in excellent shape.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by CpnCrunch »

It really depends on the damage. How do you know there is no hidden damage? I've had a rear spar failure in a plane that had a repaired spar, so I'm somewhat skeptical about any damage to wings. I recently pulled out of a purchase when the "no damage history" aircraft turned out to have flipped over in the wind a few decades back.
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PilotDAR
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by PilotDAR »

Lots of good advice above...

You'll find few "legacy" planes which do not have damage of some kind. Damage in and of itself is hardly a problem, if properly documented and repaired. The advice above is correct, I'd rather buy with known damage, well documented, which I inspected, than to find that their was an undocumented (or poorly documented) repair after I'd purchased. Don't let damage which has been well repaired affect your buying decision much. A well repaired airplane will be what you want it to be if everything else is in order. I'd guess that 90% of the GA planes I have flown had some kind of damage in their past. Of those, 5% were horror stories, most were fine, and a few had super workmanship, and some decent mods accompanying the good workmanship.

Judge the plane for what it is relative to what you want to fly. Inspect it as though you're sure it's been damaged, you just don't know where until you find it. If you find any repair or modification which does not conform to either the structural repair manual for the plane, AC43.13, or a specific approval, prepare to walk away. If you're not walking away, it's only because you understand exactly what the defect is, and are prepared to rectify it. That can work for you, if you know the plane well. I got good value on a C 150 thirty years ago, agreeing to purchase it, despite a defect I found, which I knew I could repair for less than the discount I ultimately negotiated.

But, you gotta know the plane well to take this risk. On the reverse side of this (which is much more common), I was called to do an approved repair when it was discovered ten years later (the first decent inspection) that a mis installed STOL kit fence had holes drilled into the very worst place you could damage BOTH wing spars! The plane was grounded then and there, and the repair approval was quite costly.

Honestly, go and read the structural repair section of the Cessna service manual. It's very well written, and will give you a good understanding of what you can accept, and what to look for. Reading the structural repair manual for a plane will also give you some valuable basic guidance. Do you know that Cessna is generous with "negligible damage", where Piper (for the PA-28 series) hardly allows any? That became pretty critical for the fellow who hired me to approve the hail damaged PA-28 he'd purchased. He didn't mind the hail damage for the price he paid for it, but it had been deregistered from the US, and could not be imported into Canada [until I did an approval for it] because the importing AME had no data to permit any damage to those skins!

If someone who knows their stuff (and the plane) has inspected it, and says that previous damage was properly documented and repaired, and it's the plane you want, for the price you can afford, buy it and enjoy it. If it's had a little damage, it's had "experience", and if you have a bump, well at least you did not put the first damage on an NDH plane!
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Heliian
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by Heliian »

I think some aircraft have been rebuilt 5 times by now. There are several helicopters I know of personally that were brought back from the brink after crashes, fires and floods. 99% were fine.

The 1% were poorly repaired and twisted or bent permanently.

They're all probably still flying.

I think the worry comes from the notable accidents where a repair failed catastrophically like the 747 that blew out its tail.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by jakeandelwood »

Since the majority of the small planes out there were built in the '60s , '70s and into the 80s a bit it's pretty hard to find a plane with no damage history,
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2R
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Re: How damage history affects the price?

Post by 2R »

Some Beavers started life as nothing more than a data plate .
The only original part left :)
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