Snowbird replacement aircraft

[AuxBatOn]

it'll take them 6 weeks to get the metallurgical results from the engine manufacturer, another 6 weeks to come up with wording that say's the Commander of the aircraft royally fucked up. but in 3 months come back to this post after their inital report is issued, and tell me I'm wrong

Sooo...with a full tank of gas behind you, two people onboard and (what seems like) a total loss of engine power, then zooming to try and turn airspeed into altitude, what would have been the non-fucked up solution you would have applied? Certainly if you can call out this pilot as having made colossal errors, you would possess enough superior knowledge to be able to tell us exactly what you would have done...and don't just give us a cop-out, obvious answer that you wouldn't stall the plane because you weren't in that cockpit and can't possibly know all of the factors that lead to this accident.

Aviate-Navigate-Communicate

Im thinking the first mistake he made was pitching to turn airspeed into altitude. maitain the altitude you have hold for best glide and start picking the spot your life depends on. No sense in burning off the energy you have to see options that you wont make cause you have no more energy.

Runway centerline on both runways have water for 10 miles straight ahead, so pull a sully and be invited to a superbowl. if it doesn't look good well you leave.

What you don't do, is pull to the chest and at the apex kick hard left rudder over a residential neighborhood. Im not sure how you look at that video and think that was fine or that was normal method of dealing with an emergency. Im sorry that this accident happened, and sure we can wait for a report to tell us what the video showed us. Do we need to though?

First step of the emergency procedure for a suspected engine malfunction in the Tutor: ZOOM - IF POSSIBLE, WINGS LEVEL

[L39Guy]

It’s always interesting to watch the “experts” come out of the woodwork with their learned opinions and this is no exception. What did Pancho Barnes from the movie The Right Stuff call these people, Pohdunks?

In addition to my post Tuesday, I would add the following observations based upon comments made since then:

Leftoftrack has lots of insight and seems to have the accident all figured out:

“The aircraft commander fucked up royally. engine failure should not equal stall into spin into a spiral into a house. Its not the planes fault this turned out the way it did. Please don't spend a billion of my tax dollars on a frame that will end up the same way when handling an emergency incorrectly.”
“Aviate-Navigate-Communicate

Im thinking the first mistake he made was pitching to turn airspeed into altitude. maitain the altitude you have hold for best glide and start picking the spot your life depends on. No sense in burning off the energy you have to see options that you wont make cause you have no more energy.

Runway centerline on both runways have water for 10 miles straight ahead, so pull a sully and be invited to a superbowl. if it doesn't look good well you leave.

What you don't do, is pull to the chest and at the apex kick hard left rudder over a residential neighborhood. Im not sure how you look at that video and think that was fine or that was normal method of dealing with an emergency. Im sorry that this accident happened, and sure we can wait for a report to tell us what the video showed us. Do we need to though?”

Bearing in mind that from the moment the engine appeared to fail to the time of ejection is about 12 seconds; not a lot of time but with a lot going on – formation flight, engine failure, low altitude, low speed, built-up area, non-pilot crew member, etc. That’s a lot of issues that have to be processed in such as short time.

What the PIC of that aircraft did was perfectly sound. He pulled up to exchange kinetic energy (speed) for potential energy (altitude) which kept them away from the ground and bought time (precious little) to assess; his decision to pitch to the left was sound as well as he was in formation and the standard manoeuvre is to get away from the other aircraft lest one also has to deal with a mid-air collision too.

With an optimum glide speed of 130 kts (best L/D speed), that is the target airspeed when doing the energy exchange; I estimate that they were about 100 ft AGL and about 190 kts when the engine failure occurred so there was only 60 kts of excess speed. Theoretically, that buys 320 ft of altitude if there is no energy loss but there is from profile drag and induced drag, particularly when pulling g (kinetic energy = potential energy or 1/2mV^2=mgh). 320 ft is not a lot of altitude under the best scenario. Clearly, the PIC overshot 130 kts which lead to a stall (it appears) but it also lead to a higher altitude too – I would submit that very few, experienced jet pilots would have aced hitting 130 kts on the pullup under those circumstances.

Turn up and away is also sound if one was able to get partial thrust out of the engine to make a landing on either the departure end of the runway or the arrival end. I am sure that the PiC would have been doing the idle>air start drill to try to get something out of the engine but to no avail.
Leftoftrack also can’t tell the difference between an induced spin (rudder hard over) and an incipient spin, which is what occurred here.

Gino Under should start reading newspapers to understand what is going on in the world. His observation shows a stunning lack of knowledge of current affairs and the role of Canada’s military:

Don’t forget our military’s role of recent years.
Snow shovelling.
Sandbagging during floods.
Working in old age homes.
Peacekeeping.
Recovering stranded Canadians who were told to stay home before this pandemic really got up to speed.
Using our bases as quarantine facilities (God bless those based in Trenton who skirted exposure)
Tells us everything we need to know about our governments view of our military.

He would be surprised to learn that the CAF is or was in Latvia and Romania with the army and air force (CF18’s), in Mali (C130’s, Griffons), South Sudan (C130’s), the navy in the Pacific Ocean (Korea), Mediterranean, Straits of Hormuz, etc.

[frosti]

A better ejection seat? The new models are quite large and likely would not fit into the Tutor cockpit. And even if they did, an engineering program to support a 12 operational aircraft fleet is tough to justify.

Finally, I would submit that if there was not a fatality in this accident (and the margin between being a successful and unsuccessful ejection in this case being in the order of seconds), this accident like the one in October would not be as big an issue nor the replacement of the Tutor be such an issue.

Are there no modern ejection seat systems available that will fit inside a tutor? Nevermind the engineering required to make it work, will anything physically fit with the canopy closed? I have zero issues with an engine failure, bird ingestion or whatever else led up to the point of ejection. However when you pull those handles I better have 100% confidence that the system will give me chance of survival. You can argue that the seat worked as designed, assuming the investigation finds it did, but that's still 1960's tech designed in the 50's.

This crash was very public, tones of witnesses, crash into a neighborhood and a death. In October it was none of that, pilot crashed in a cow field and essentially walked away. Where were the calls for replacement aircraft then? People only become experts when it's convenient. Even in this accident, you watch, by the end of the month it will be forgotten.

[L39Guy]

The modern seats that I have seen are a lot deeper than what was on the Tutor - there is a great display from Martin-Baker at the RAF Museum in Herdon, London. I suspect that the rocketry, gimbals, etc. take more room than the relatively simple rockets on the Tutor seat but I am no expert I just suspect it will be difficult given the floor to canopy space available and perhaps even the lateral space too.

Retrofitting ejection seats can be done; the Vintage Wings F86 Sabre had Tutor ejection seats installed in that aircraft.

[leftoftrack]

It’s always interesting to watch the “experts” come out of the woodwork with their learned opinions and this is no exception. What did Pancho Barnes from the movie The Right Stuff call these people, Pohdunks?

In addition to my post Tuesday, I would add the following observations based upon comments made since then:

Leftoftrack has lots of insight and seems to have the accident all figured out:

“The aircraft commander fucked up royally. engine failure should not equal stall into spin into a spiral into a house. Its not the planes fault this turned out the way it did. Please don't spend a billion of my tax dollars on a frame that will end up the same way when handling an emergency incorrectly.”
“Aviate-Navigate-Communicate

Im thinking the first mistake he made was pitching to turn airspeed into altitude. maitain the altitude you have hold for best glide and start picking the spot your life depends on. No sense in burning off the energy you have to see options that you wont make cause you have no more energy.

Runway centerline on both runways have water for 10 miles straight ahead, so pull a sully and be invited to a superbowl. if it doesn't look good well you leave.

What you don't do, is pull to the chest and at the apex kick hard left rudder over a residential neighborhood. Im not sure how you look at that video and think that was fine or that was normal method of dealing with an emergency. Im sorry that this accident happened, and sure we can wait for a report to tell us what the video showed us. Do we need to though?”

Bearing in mind that from the moment the engine appeared to fail to the time of ejection is about 12 seconds; not a lot of time but with a lot going on – formation flight, engine failure, low altitude, low speed, built-up area, non-pilot crew member, etc. That’s a lot of issues that have to be processed in such as short time.

What the PIC of that aircraft did was perfectly sound. He pulled up to exchange kinetic energy (speed) for potential energy (altitude) which kept them away from the ground and bought time (precious little) to assess; his decision to pitch to the left was sound as well as he was in formation and the standard manoeuvre is to get away from the other aircraft lest one also has to deal with a mid-air collision too.

With an optimum glide speed of 130 kts (best L/D speed), that is the target airspeed when doing the energy exchange; I estimate that they were about 100 ft AGL and about 190 kts when the engine failure occurred so there was only 60 kts of excess speed. Theoretically, that buys 320 ft of altitude if there is no energy loss but there is from profile drag and induced drag, particularly when pulling g (kinetic energy = potential energy or 1/2mV^2=mgh). 320 ft is not a lot of altitude under the best scenario. Clearly, the PIC overshot 130 kts which lead to a stall (it appears) but it also lead to a higher altitude too – I would submit that very few, experienced jet pilots would have aced hitting 130 kts on the pullup under those circumstances.

Turn up and away is also sound if one was able to get partial thrust out of the engine to make a landing on either the departure end of the runway or the arrival end. I am sure that the PiC would have been doing the idle>air start drill to try to get something out of the engine but to no avail.
Leftoftrack also can’t tell the difference between an induced spin (rudder hard over) and an incipient spin, which is what occurred here.

Gino Under should start reading newspapers to understand what is going on in the world. His observation shows a stunning lack of knowledge of current affairs and the role of Canada’s military:

Don’t forget our military’s role of recent years.
Snow shovelling.
Sandbagging during floods.
Working in old age homes.
Peacekeeping.
Recovering stranded Canadians who were told to stay home before this pandemic really got up to speed.
Using our bases as quarantine facilities (God bless those based in Trenton who skirted exposure)
Tells us everything we need to know about our governments view of our military.

He would be surprised to learn that the CAF is or was in Latvia and Romania with the army and air force (CF18’s), in Mali (C130’s, Griffons), South Sudan (C130’s), the navy in the Pacific Ocean (Korea), Mediterranean, Straits of Hormuz, etc.

yup, totally think he actually kicked full Left rudder

[L39Guy]

Looks like you don’t have any jet experience either since one does not need nor use the rudders in a single engine jet except for crosswind landings and take-offs.

[leftoftrack]

Looks like you don’t have any jet experience either since one does not need nor use the rudders in a single engine jet except for crosswind landings and take-offs.

my jet experience is limited to multi-engine time. we definitely use rudder to maintain coordination. Now admittedly I dont know the engine out procedure of the Tudor. Having said that, is an engine failure suppose to result in a stall spin spiral dive and parking it in someone's house with half the crew dead and luckily that's the only fatality? Cause if thats the goal then he aced it. He shit the bed, it's like those idiots that shut down the wrong engine in Indonesia in the ATR. He either didn't know the drill or he didn't preform it. We don't need to buy new planes cause a pilot fucked up and someone died

[Bavros]

.

[leftoftrack]

yes

[leftoftrack]

P.S. Commander Dick MacDougall was confirmed to have left the aircraft first. He litteraly abandoned his passenger. Can we stop with the Hero bullshit and start with the Court Marshall proceedings?

[Rockie]

Are you competing for some kind of ignorance and clueless assholery award? You do not know the first thing about how military jets are operated or how their crews are trained, so I strongly suggest you cease before you dig yourself even deeper.

[AirFrame]

We don't need to buy new planes cause a pilot fucked up and someone died

Sweet Jesus... just stop digging the hole you're in.

[TT1900]

P.S. Commander Dick MacDougall was confirmed to have left the aircraft first. He litteraly abandoned his passenger. Can we stop with the Hero bullshit and start with the Court Marshall proceedings?

Why don’t you research how ejection sequences work, educate yourself, and come back when you aren’t an ignorant twat. Both seats can be operated by either handle and are automatically sequenced to avoid the possibility of the occupants hitting each other.

[AirFrame]

Why don’t you research how ejection sequences work, educate yourself, and come back when you aren’t an ignorant twat. Both seats can be operated by either handle and are automatically sequenced to avoid the possibility of the occupants hitting each other.

A former Tutor instructor told me that the Tutor seats are not sequenced. Each pulls their own.

[frosti]

Why don’t you research how ejection sequences work, educate yourself, and come back when you aren’t an ignorant twat. Both seats can be operated by either handle and are automatically sequenced to avoid the possibility of the occupants hitting each other.

A former Tutor instructor told me that the Tutor seats are not sequenced. Each pulls their own.

This is the correct answer.

[Old fella]

Allright, let’s wrap up the investigation. We’re done. leftoftrack found the cause of the accident.

This leftoftrack dude , similar to the pelmet individual would appear to me to be an act, troll perhaps a to strong term. You know the RCAF, it’s standards, requirements in all aspects and like others on this site with similar backgrounds can speak with authority. I will leave it at that. Cheers mate.

[TT1900]

Why don’t you research how ejection sequences work, educate yourself, and come back when you aren’t an ignorant twat. Both seats can be operated by either handle and are automatically sequenced to avoid the possibility of the occupants hitting each other.

A former Tutor instructor told me that the Tutor seats are not sequenced. Each pulls their own.

Fair enough. Never flown the Tutor, my mistake. Figured it would be like all the others.Jumped the gun a bit. Just unhappy.

I stand by my ignorant twat comment, however. Suggesting a delayed ejection is ridiculous when we are seeing the results.

I’m done here. Just getting angry.

[Schooner69A]

You folks leave 'leftoftrack" alone. He is providing comic relief in these troubled times...

[goingnowherefast]

How about a Tudor 2? Modernise the airframe, new avionics, modern engine (more efficient, more reliable). Basically what happened with the Twin Otter

[frosti]

How about a Tudor 2? Modernise the airframe, new avionics, modern engine (more efficient, more reliable). Basically what happened with the Twin Otter

Airframe is fine, there are no major issues that haven't been addressed already.
New avionics (glass cockpit etc) was approved and to begin retrofitting this summer.
New engine was looked at, would take a significant amount of work and $$ to make anything fit.

Might as well start with a clean sheet and have bombar...err....someone else built it. The Tutor 2 is about as likely as an Avro Arrow 2.