Snowbird replacement aircraft

[tsgarp]

P.S. Commander Dick MacDougall was confirmed to have left the aircraft first. He litteraly abandoned his passenger. Can we stop with the Hero bullshit and start with the Court Marshall proceedings?

It’s Court Martial.

[2R]

What kind of camera was used that showed what could be a small object anomaly ? Some digital cameras use frequencies for imaging that capture more than is displayed in the video and the device may have more useful data that may be retrieved and enhanced revealing more useful data ?
Some cameras see and record in 10 pixel and only display in 2 pixel .
That camera should be in a lab ASAP .

[frosti]

What kind of camera was used that showed what could be a small object anomaly ? Some digital cameras use frequencies for imaging that capture more than is displayed in the video and the device may have more useful data that may be retrieved and enhanced revealing more useful data ?
Some cameras see and record in 10 pixel and only display in 2 pixel .
That camera should be in a lab ASAP .

I think it depends where it was uploaded, Twitter and IG seem to blur everything out, whereas the FB and YouTube (original uploads) are clear. I’m sure the investigators have the original copies from the source.

[Gannet167]

P.S. Commander Dick MacDougall was confirmed to have left the aircraft first. He litteraly abandoned his passenger. Can we stop with the Hero bullshit and start with the Court Marshall proceedings?

There’s an investigation underway. It’s incredibly inappropriate for anyone to pre-judge and decide to allocate blame until all the facts are known. There is much more to the story than anyone who wasn’t in that cockpit knows. There are many other operational factors that are not public knowledge. The whole story may change a few minds if it is ever known.

This aircraft and this type of flying is very foreign to anyone who hasn’t handled military high performance aircraft. Having never been there, most people, and from your ignorant trolling comments certainly you, do not understand. You’ve made a few strong assertions that show real naïveté of this type of flying, yet appear to come from a place of certainty and knowledge. Just stop. It’s disrespectful to everyone involved for you to think you’ve got this figured out and are ready to pronounce judgement. Even the experienced military fliers on the forum know better than to pronounce and blame before all is understood.

BTW, not sure if you’re trying to be sarcastic or condescending, but his rank isn’t Commander. That’s a Navy rank. His name is Rich not Dick. You’ve also got his last name spelled wrong. As was already pointed out, a "Marshall" is a type of law enforcement officer.

Let's try to be professional to one another. God forbid leftoftrack ever finds himself in a hairy situation one day. Hopefully his flying is better than his spelling, discernment and consideration.

[7ECA]

Regarding the "image" on the video, what are the odds that it's just a speck of dust on the camera sensor? You'll see the same spot on photos if you've ever had a speck of debris on the sensor... Or, it could be something.

As for the ejections, both occupants ejected within a very short amount of time; and it appears as though neither parachute opened sufficiently - although the pilot seems to have escaped with his life by landing on a rooftop. After the engine failure and subsequent ejection in Georgia last year, there was some reporting on there being an issue with the ejection - did anything ever come out about that (a report, or detailed information as to what the issue was)? Obviously more altitude is beneficial for ejection/parachute operation with these older seats...

[alkaseltzer]

Allright, let’s wrap up the investigation. We’re done. leftoftrack found the cause of the accident.

This leftoftrack dude , similar to the pelmet individual would appear to me to be an act, troll perhaps a to strong term. You know the RCAF, it’s standards, requirements in all aspects and like others on this site with similar backgrounds can speak with authority. I will leave it at that. Cheers mate.

+1. He's not a professional pilot. Probably has tons of FSX time though.

[skymarc]

CF18 all the way.

[2R]

All the way where ?
A design almost as old as the Tutor ,
The only thing it has going for it is twin engines .

Who would sell us a sixth generation laser gun equipped fighter ? Maybe we could build the future , an Arrow 2.
Look to the future , not to the past .

To Infinity and Beyond

[complexintentions]

Aviation, airplane, handling skills-brain says I love the Snowbirds.

Coldly rational brain says time to scrap the whole thing. Risk/reward equation just isn't there. Doubtful it ever was, to be honest. It's just that they're so cool! And all militaries cling to their traditions like stink on poop.

Recruiting tool? Let's quantify the RoR on that, please. Most every aviator I ever knew - civilian OR military, knew they wanted to be a pilot, and only a pilot, and nothing but a pilot - airshow flying is just preaching to the converted in that regard. I don't doubt that it does its part for other branches of the military as well, but I'll bet anything if the comparable amount of money spent on the demonstration team was put towards boring, non-life-threatening advertising the results wouldn't be that much different. You certainly wouldn't know unless it was actually studied. Compromise? Keep the demo Hornet with the cool paintjobs - far more inspiring to see something actually used in combat. Risk/reward far better: one pilot, two engines, modern ejection seat. Leave the aerobatics for the civvies in their purpose-built machines.

As to the accident, I admit I am troubled mainly by the loss of control at the apex of the climb. Altitude is important, but airspeed is life. And save all the single-engine, multi-engine, jet/not jet, I'm a military pilot/you're not experienced whatever bullshit, please. Principles regarding stall speed are common to all aircraft, even with variations of handling characteristics.

Unfortunately, for all his tactlessness, leftoftrack may be correct. Attack his insensitivity all you want, but his speculation is as valid as any other and the video evidence - pretty much all we plebs have to go on - doesn't contradict him. It's fine to point out that trading energy for altitude is the correct procedure, but not honest to gloss over the fact that so much was lost that control was no longer possible. That's not assigning blame or or pronouncing judgment, that's making a dispassionate observation of the facts at hand. Emotional defences of one's comrades by attacking anyone trying to understand this accident is understandable but not helpful in finding the truth.

I sincerely hope that the investigation will reveal other contributory factors.

[DadoBlade]

goingnowherefast said "How about a Tudor 2...?" Tudor? Again? It is a Tutor, as in "teacher". The Tutor was designed as a jet trainer. Refer to my post on page one (1) of this thread. In my 40-plus year career in aviation, I have seen this annoying error made by the popular media, printed in air show programmes and even in articles written by accredited aviation journalists. Trust me, it is not a typographical error. They just haven't been sufficiently tutored.

[Rockie]

That's not assigning blame or or pronouncing judgment, that's making a dispassionate observation of the facts at hand. Emotional defences of one's comrades by attacking anyone trying to understand this accident is understandable but not helpful in finding the truth.

Well if you consider calling for a Court “Marshall” an honest attempt to understand the cause of an accident and not assigning blame or pronouncing judgement, maybe you should learn to read English.

While you’re busy doing that perhaps you too could wait for some kind of official report before weighing in with your expertise on ejection seat equipped military jets.

[AirFrame]

Unfortunately, for all his tactlessness, leftoftrack may be correct.

We all know he might be right, and none of us want it to be true. But if he's right, it's only in the "stopped clock is right twice a day" sense, in that he's spewing BS without any factual support. And he's being an absolute disrespectful douchebag about it.

I sincerely hope that the investigation will reveal other contributory factors.

So say we all.

[complexintentions]

That's not assigning blame or or pronouncing judgment, that's making a dispassionate observation of the facts at hand. Emotional defences of one's comrades by attacking anyone trying to understand this accident is understandable but not helpful in finding the truth.

Well if you consider calling for a Court “Marshall” an honest attempt to understand the cause of an accident and not assigning blame or pronouncing judgement, maybe you should learn to read English.

While you’re busy doing that perhaps you too could wait for some kind of official report before weighing in with your expertise on ejection seat equipped military jets.

I called out the "tactless, insensitive" commenting style, I didn't support it. Honest is not the same thing as pleasant, your comment about comprehension is quite ironic.

How do military jet ejection seats relate to an aerodynamic stall? I made no reference to the former, I do know a little about the latter.

I swear you've lost it since making your big AvCanada comeback. You're only confirming my comment about emotional outbursts.

[Rockie]

His comments go far beyond tactless and deserve nothing less than contempt. As for this incident, in the 12 seconds this pilot had I can think of at least four things he had to immediately assess and act on besides the immediate aerodynamic situation that a non-ejection seat, non-formating pilot does not need to think about. All of them critical, and potentially significant in leading directly or indirectly to the aerodynamic state of the airplane.

Stuff you and leftoftrack have never had to think about and have zero experience with. So if I get a bit worked up defending a military pilot against abject ignorance then tough shit complex. I couldn’t care less what you think of my demeanor.

[Old fella]

His comments go far beyond tactless and deserve nothing less than contempt. As for this incident, in the 12 seconds this pilot had I can think of at least four things he had to immediately assess and act on besides the immediate aerodynamic situation that a non-ejection seat, non-formating pilot does not need to think about. All of them critical, and potentially significant in leading directly or indirectly to the aerodynamic state of the airplane.

Stuff you and leftoftrack have never had to think about. So if I get a bit worked up defending a military pilot against abject ignorance then tough shit complex. I couldn’t care less what you think of my demeanor.

Let’s not forget the anguish this Snowbird pilot is no doubt going through due the death of a fellow team member sitting next to him after the “12 seconds” decision making. That’s a situation that very few RCAF pilots would have deal with in the aftermath. Just saying.

[Zaibatsu]

I’m curious to know what if any of those four things were more important than maintaining aircraft control close to the ground.

Indulge us, Rockie.

[Rockie]

I’m curious to know what if any of those four things were more important than maintaining aircraft control close to the ground.

Indulge us, Rockie.

The first two are obvious to any current or former military jet pilot.

1. Identify the engine failure (while in close formation focused on the lead aircraft), initiate a climb, assess, and attempt a restart.
2. Turn away from the last known position of the lead aircraft since he's lost sight of him.

The rest I will not share here because as I wasn't there that would be speculation no matter how educated, but they would certainly be front and centre in my brain.

If you didn't think of the first two I guarantee you wouldn't think of the rest either, nor obviously did leftoftrack or complexintentions. Putting oneself in this pilot's seat when they have no experience to be able to and then passing judgement is intolerable, especially when it's done in such an asshole way.

12 seconds.

[frosti]

Before this gets too out of hand, let me point out that he wasn’t part of the demonstration group of pilots, but rather a coordinator who mainly transits the a/c from point to point. How anyone else would have handled this situation, is one for the simulator like the movie “Sully”.

[jakeandelwood]

Is anyone else curious to know how this exact accident may have unfolded if the Tutor DID NOT have ejection seats? Basically meaning the pilots knew they had to stay with the aircraft till the bitter end like any civillian pilot would.

[AuxBatOn]

The exact same way except you’d have one more fatality.