College of Professional Pilots

[leftcoaster]

I let my membership lapse and when I went to the website I found that nothing new has been posted since 2016. Is the College defunct?

Thanks

[doiwannabeapilot]

If we had a CPP we would have had better wages and conditions pre-covid., and there would have been less layoffs.
Sad. We loosed out big time.

[montado]

Better wages? No layoffs? Doubt it... the only certainty would be the 60 bucks less in my account every year.

[telex]

$60 well wasted. The end.

[Yycjetdriver]

$60 well wasted. The end.

Well wasted? Did the college accomplish anything before it’s members clearly got bored and tired of wasting their time?

[Bradley Tucker]

I would not say they got bored is 100% accurate. If I remember correctly there was a lot of negativity from the industry while they were active. You have to ask yourself why put effort into making an industry better when a big part of the industry was so negative. The question to ask is, Do we have a need for an association of this sort? If so what do we want to accomplish and how?

[telex]

$60 well wasted. The end.

Well wasted? Did the college accomplish anything before it’s members clearly got bored and tired of wasting their time?

Yes, well wasted in the sense that it accomplished nothing. Very well wasted even.

I wonder if the only asset they had in a projector was sold and used for beer?

[McKinley]

It was a great idea in theory...

I had someone from the CPP ask me to join. After listening to how the CPP would hold me accountable etc it seemed like another regulatory body to me. Perhaps, the person caught me on a bad day and maybe it was how this was delivered.

Sure, by all means, I need to be held accountable. I do think I should behave and function in a manner that holds pilots in a positive light.

However, when we have some of the lowest pay and worst duty regulations out there I also see it as a two way street. When I brought this up.. the person from the CPP told me how If I was held to a higher standard things would fix themselves. - I Didn’t buy the coolaid. The focus for this individual was not looking at how pilots are treated...

Systemic problems are just that... adding another regulatory body that abdicates it’s responsibility to maintain ethical and safe working for other human beings and protects others from exploitative conditions is something I have a hard time paying into freely.

[leftcoaster]

Lots of conversation here but no straight up answers. I gather from the conversation that it sounds like the College is defunct.

[montado]

I would not say they got bored is 100% accurate. If I remember correctly there was a lot of negativity from the industry while they were active. You have to ask yourself why put effort into making an industry better when a big part of the industry was so negative. The question to ask is, Do we have a need for an association of this sort? If so what do we want to accomplish and how?

I think the way a college or association would work would have to be similar to say the college of pharmacists. The college is responsible for discipline and licensing of all Ontario pharmacists. You would basically have to give up SMS to the college who would take on that responsibility. The college would also have a hand in licensing and medicals. It would be a drastic change, that no one would really accept as reasonable. If you fudge something up at work it would by up to the college to discipline you. Membership would cost 500 to 1000 per year.

For 60 bucks a year you really can't expect to much. I think the reality is for the college to work the pilots, airlines, unions and TC would have to give up lots of control to make it happen.

[telex]

https://mcusercontent.com/7f77b37e5b25b ... Report.pdf

[doiwannabeapilot]

maybe the problem was the name.


Can we reopen that debate ?!

[photofly]

I think the way a college or association would work would have to be similar to say the college of pharmacists. The college is responsible for discipline and licensing of all Ontario pharmacists. You would basically have to give up SMS to the college who would take on that responsibility. The college would also have a hand in licensing and medicals.

No government will ever give up this power; the public would not stand for it. Nor would the ICAO. It cannot happen.

[AirFrame]

No government will ever give up this power; the public would not stand for it. Nor would the ICAO. It cannot happen.

I'm not sure why not... They do it for other professions.

[Meatservo]

maybe the problem was the name.


Can we reopen that debate ?!

Yes; if the College of Professional Pilots of Canada was remarkable as a professional organization for any reason, it would be because the majority of their putative recruiting base were too stupid to understand what the word "college" means in a professional sense; and resented any implication that they may have been subjected to any form of education in the past.

[photofly]

No government will ever give up this power; the public would not stand for it. Nor would the ICAO. It cannot happen.

I'm not sure why not... They do it for other professions.

Other professions. Funny.

Go search on the Government of Canada website (https://noc.esdc.gc.ca/) for the classification of pilots. They're listed under 2271 - skill level B "Occupations usually require college education, specialized training or apprenticeship training"

Then check physicians, and all the other health professions: skill level "A – Occupations usually require university education"

Being a pilot is a machinery operation role. Very highly skilled, but not in the same class as the professions. Sorry.

And look at the history: the Royal College of Physicians goes back to 1518, and Henry VIII. The Law Society (in the UK) was founded in 1825. The Law Society of Ontario was founded in 1797. The structure for the regulation of the legal and medical and allied healthcare professions goes back centuries. If this was 1910 and flight had just been invented then you might have a chance. But it's 2020, a hundred years too late, and no country in the world has a college of pilots as a regulatory body, and there is not the slightest chance that Canada will be the first.

[0000001]

+1

[AirFrame]

Go search on the Government of Canada website (https://noc.esdc.gc.ca/) for the classification of pilots. They're listed under 2271 - skill level B "Occupations usually require college education, specialized training or apprenticeship training"

Interesting... I didn't even know such a classification system existed, despite falling into one of the "A" professions.

Being a pilot is a machinery operation role. Very highly skilled, but not in the same class as the professions. Sorry.

This is just one classification system, and it's not absolute. Some of the professions (mine, for example) allow for non-university educated people to "challenge" the system by demonstrating equivalent knowledge and practical experience to be accepted as a professional within the field.

And look at the history: the Royal College of Physicians goes back to 1518, and Henry VIII. The Law Society (in the UK) was founded in 1825. The Law Society of Ontario was founded in 1797. The structure for the regulation of the legal and medical and allied healthcare professions goes back centuries. If this was 1910 and flight had just been invented then you might have a chance. But it's 2020, a hundred years too late, and no country in the world has a college of pilots as a regulatory body, and there is not the slightest chance that Canada will be the first.

It would be difficult for aviation to have a professional group more than about 100 years old, given there were no aircraft before then. In contrast, the human body has been getting sick for thousands of years, and people have been arguing legal matters as long as there have been two people and one had an apple the other one wanted. All of these professional groups started well after their "professions" were underway, and they've all advanced significantly since their inception. They had to start somewhere.

[photofly]

Some of the professions (mine, for example) allow for non-university educated people to "challenge" the system by demonstrating equivalent knowledge and practical experience to be accepted as a professional within the field.

The takeaway is not that every lawyer requires a university degree nor that no pilot has one. It is simply that, as far as government and the world is concerned, being a pilot is job, and not a profession.

All of these professional groups started well after their "professions" were underway, and they've all advanced significantly since their inception.

The professional colleges were advanced as the way to regulate the professions, by the members of the profession, given the state of society in that era, and because there did not already exist any kind of oversight or governance. As far as I am aware in no situation has a professional college taken over a regulatory responsibility that was already engaged by government. For pilots, regulation already exists. Government is pathologically unable to relinquish control of anything, once it has assumed it.

A more appropriate body than a professional college would be a trade guild; historically the guilds controlled who was allowed to hold themselves out as a practitioner of any trade. Having a look at who controls access to for instance a master electrician's licence, might be instructive: and yes, it's the government.

[PeterParker]

With all the disgruntled voices around pilot wages and with how the industry is going, thought I would resurrect this not-too-old thread and see what the appetite is for the CPPC becoming more vibrant. ALPA and Unifor and the other unions are doing not a terrible job but that is not really helping out now, is it? A unified voice across the industry might be the requirement and now seems to be as good a time as any for something like this to come about.

For everyone whose argument is "Don't take that job" or "Stop working for free", remember that not everyone has that option and employers are easily able to manipulate job-seeking applicants to fit their narrative. I am not asking for a regulatory body but more of a wage and conditions negotiator. A college/guild/union to help guide pilots to negotiate a fair wage.