A mess to regain confidence.

[JeppsOnFire]

It seems to me that someone’s stated position on this issue has more to do with an individuals worldview than just economics or science. We can, and have, gone back and forth with exhaustive ‘he said she said’ science and medical opinion. Both sides presenting truth and relevance to the debate.
I entertained the idea of comparing this to military strategy but concluded that would just lead to a tangent about gun control and/or Trump’s walk down the ramp at West Point the other day.

Instead, liking it to a persons approach to finances. In one camp we have the aggressive investor who is happy taking risks on equities and leveraging to maximize returns. They are willing to take the chance on volatility for the potential benefits. They typically are heavily involved in their portfolios.
On the other hand, we have the conservative investor who has legitimate worries about the future. Consistent investments in fixed income and bonds, taking no chances and avoiding volatility while accepting the price they pay for that in the form of weaker returns. They typically stay arms length away from their portfolios and have someone else handle the details.
Neither are wrong. It’s simply a choice based on risk tolerance, age and season of life.
Shipping everyone over 60 to a deserted island is not the answer and deadbolting everyone in their homes indefinitely is not the answer. Each would solve a singular problem but both are critical to civilized existence. The grey area in between is where the hard choices and also the answer lies.

For those keeping score - Pelmet is right and Rockie is right. They’re also both dead wrong.
Finding the balance between those two lunatics is where the answer is.

[Heliian]

Florida just blew the record today.

Both Texas and Florida are now closing all bars for 30 days.

18 people that went to a salon in southern Ontario were just confirmed with it.

I know a company that has now suspended training in the u.s. for ppcs and had to apply for an extension from TC, which was received. Covid has made it too dangerous to travel to several states, the outlook is not good at the moment.

[pelmet]

Of course. It is an absolute failure. But I can promise you the answer won't be "make all rooms two-bed, and lock the doors." The problems are a lot deeper, and fixing them will take a lot more work.

Plus...I am told that many old folks homes don't allow locks on the rooms which allows dementia patients to wander into other rooms on a regular basis.

Pelmet may be surprised, but long term care is not a prison, and residents (note, not inmates) are not chained to their beds, either. Not even the ones with dementia.

Very nice to say the problems are deeper, but how about actually telling us what those deeper problems are. Workers working at multiple locations is one issue but that may have been resolved. Workers living together was another issue. Workers actually doing things properly was a third one.

Nice to say stupid stuff like I might be surprised that a long term care facility is not a prison but all it is.....is a stupid statement. Saying that four persons to a room shouldn’t be allowed has nothing to do with prison. Stating the fact that some places don’t allow locks on doors(something that almost every one of us has) has nothing do with prison. Quarantining people to save their lives may sound drastic to those who think that bankrupting businesses is a better alternative, but I have always said that quarantined people should have the right to risk their life and roam free. But that would be their choice which in the case of a resident at an old folks home would mean......find somewhere else to stay.

You see......businesses thrive......vulnerable survive and if you want to take a risk.....you are free to do so.

Imagine that.

[photofly]

Very nice to say the problems are deeper, but how about actually telling us what those deeper problems are.

Inadequate personal care, medical, nursing, diagnostic and pharmacological resourcing for the resident population, many of whom in previous incarnations of long term care would have been in hospital, in a continuing care ward.

You should read this report, if you haven't already:
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... in-On.html
(warning: it's actually quite upsetting.)

There's a lot more to fix than four-to-a-room and "tie granny to her bed".

[7ECA]

Consider also outsourcing of nursing, janitorial, and other staff; along with union busting employers looking to get the cheapest labour possible - and suddenly you have care home staff having to work at multiple locations to make ends meet. But, looks good for the shareholders of those private care home owners... Mind you, the same sort of thing has happened in hospitals - as cleaning staff are outsourced to contractors who provide the bare minimum of effort at the lowest cost, you see an increase in illnesses/complications resulting from hospital acquired infections.

For all the pelmets of the world, crying about being "confined" to their quarters by a tyrannical government hell bent on killing off small businesses and turning Canada into a dictatorship; there are people who've realized that selectively slowing down portions of the economy and limiting social interactions will help in the long run. Canada has not had any sort of widespread shelter in place, lock down type rules in place; and yet the weeping and gnashing of teeth from certain quarters is getting a bit annoying, to say the least. Go outside and get some fresh air already, that basement air is starting to make you a bit... tetchy.

[pelmet]

Anyways......we are opening up....no matter what some here want to do.

Back to almost normal behaviour for more and more of us.....with a few logical precautions.I have been getting fresh air every day since the lockdown began.

[mixturerich]

Anyways......we are opening up....no matter what some here want to do.

Back to almost normal behaviour for more and more of us.....with a few logical precautions.I have been getting fresh air every day since the lockdown began.

Back to almost normal lol. Right. Things are “opening” up but it seems like people are choosing to be cautious anyways, and also much less “spendy”. We are also going have a huge issue with all the people that won’t ever really have a job to go back to. As long as the 6ft rule is a thing, nothing will be as busy, and there won’t need to be as many employees. I think everyone has been getting fresh air lately, walking, hiking, or camping, instead of spending money, changing their ways and changing their priorities. Things will never feel normal until the 6ft rules is gone. Who knows how long that will be...

[Rockie]

Anyways......we are opening up....no matter what some here want to do.

Back to almost normal behaviour for more and more of us.....with a few logical precautions.I have been getting fresh air every day since the lockdown began.

Why can’t you get it through your thick skull that everybody wants to open up? The difference is most people want to do it intelligently so we don’t have to close it up again like they will be forced to do in the US.

[Old fella]

Here in Maritimes, the four Provinces NB,PE,NS and NL created their own internal bubble in that internal restrictions have been lifted on travel amongst residents. No need for self isolation, however it has been noted many are spooked about US citizens who seem to be getting into NB despite closures. It is the considered opinion of many in this neck of the woods the Americans are not taking this pandemic issue seriously, indeed are quite irresponsible. Our welcoming attitude is getting thin.

[complexintentions]

Why can’t you get it through your thick skull that everybody wants to open up? The difference is most people want to do it intelligently so we don’t have to close it up again like they will be forced to do in the US.

Actually I've met quite a few people who'd be quite happy to have things not open up indefinitely. Mostly government workers who have been collecting full pay this whole time for little or no work. Unions are of course crying that it's "unsafe".

Whether they really believe that or just like the paid holiday (without using holiday days, I might add), you can be the judge.

[rookiepilot]

Consider also outsourcing of nursing, janitorial, and other staff; along with union busting employers looking to get the cheapest labour possible - and suddenly you have care home staff having to work at multiple locations to make ends meet. But, looks good for the shareholders of those private care home owners... Mind you, the same sort of thing has happened in hospitals - as cleaning staff are outsourced to contractors who provide the bare minimum of effort at the lowest cost, you see an increase in illnesses/complications resulting from hospital acquired infections.

I've seen this. In hospitals, even.

Yet AC and the others are advertising their "superclean" program, so we can't get sick on airplanes. What a laugh.

[Rockie]

[quote=7ECA post_id=<a href="tel:1120393">1120393</a> time=<a href="tel:1593229776">1593229776</a> user_id=44603]
Consider also outsourcing of nursing, janitorial, and other staff; along with union busting employers looking to get the cheapest labour possible - and suddenly you have care home staff having to work at multiple locations to make ends meet. But, looks good for the shareholders of those private care home owners... Mind you, the same sort of thing has happened in hospitals - as cleaning staff are outsourced to contractors who provide the bare minimum of effort at the lowest cost, you see an increase in illnesses/complications resulting from hospital acquired infections.

I've seen this. In hospitals, even.

Yet AC and the others are advertising their "superclean" program, so we can't get sick on airplanes. What a laugh.
[/quote]

Show me where any airline, or anyone says you can’t get sick on airplanes. The airplanes are meticulously cleaned and disinfected between flights and if you’ve flown recently you’ll be familiar with inflight and gate procedures. AC for one is sparing no effort or expense, and all of it is a collection of measures to make it safe. Only an idiot though would offer or expect a guarantee.

[Rockie]

Actually I've met quite a few people who'd be quite happy to have things not open up indefinitely. Mostly government workers who have been collecting full pay this whole time for little or no work. Unions are of course crying that it's "unsafe".

Whether they really believe that or just like the paid holiday (without using holiday days, I might add), you can be the judge.

Anyone who really believed that is not smart enough to hold down a job. However comfortable they might be and whatever they might say, how stupid would you have to be to think this can continue indefinitely? So I call a mild “bullshit” on that one.

[pelmet]

Actually I've met quite a few people who'd be quite happy to have things not open up indefinitely. Mostly government workers who have been collecting full pay this whole time for little or no work. Unions are of course crying that it's "unsafe".

Whether they really believe that or just like the paid holiday (without using holiday days, I might add), you can be the judge.

Anyone who really believed that is not smart enough to hold down a job. However comfortable they might be and whatever they might say, how stupid would you have to be to think this can continue indefinitely? So I call a mild “bullshit” on that one.

The unions and in my opinion, the majority of Canadians want other people's money supplied to them. The whirlpool of economic destruction is starting to swirl faster and faster. Massive spending to pay people not to work or do a little bit of work, a war on one of our economic engines known as oil and the industries that use it, paying students not to work while foreigners are brought in to work temporary summer jobs, massive fraud with little concern.

To be honest with you, I can see that start of the destruction of of the western civilization empire with a slow motion socialist revolution happening before our eyes.

Laziness and feel good policies by the emotional people. It extends well beyond Canada and the US. The irresponsible are rewarded with excuses for their behaviour. It is quite fascinating to watch and how it is being implemented without the violent revolutions of the past. Through the majority of media and schools, step by step, piece by piece. With that in mind, I have started working on options for myself and you should too. The Rockie's of the world will cause calamity...either as being part of the large percentage of 'useful idiots' in society of the much smaller percentage of people who use the 'useful idiots' to their own end.

Some will laugh at my analysis of revolution as ridiculous and I hope you are correct and would love to be wrong...but either way, you heard it here first.

[Heliian]

Actually I've met quite a few people who'd be quite happy to have things not open up indefinitely. Mostly government workers who have been collecting full pay this whole time for little or no work. Unions are of course crying that it's "unsafe".

Whether they really believe that or just like the paid holiday (without using holiday days, I might add), you can be the judge.

Anyone who really believed that is not smart enough to hold down a job. However comfortable they might be and whatever they might say, how stupid would you have to be to think this can continue indefinitely? So I call a mild “bullshit” on that one.

The unions and in my opinion, the majority of Canadians want other people's money supplied to them. The whirlpool of economic destruction is starting to swirl faster and faster. Massive spending to pay people not to work or do a little bit of work, a war on one of our economic engines known as oil and the industries that use it, paying students not to work while foreigners are brought in to work temporary summer jobs, massive fraud with little concern.

To be honest with you, I can see that start of the destruction of of the western civilization empire with a slow motion socialist revolution happening before our eyes.

Laziness and feel good policies by the emotional people. It extends well beyond Canada and the US. The irresponsible are rewarded with excuses for their behaviour. It is quite fascinating to watch and how it is being implemented without the violent revolutions of the past. Through the majority of media and schools, step by step, piece by piece. With that in mind, I have started working on options for myself and you should too. The Rockie's of the world will cause calamity...either as being part of the large percentage of 'useful idiots' in society of the much smaller percentage of people who use the 'useful idiots' to their own end.

Some will laugh at my analysis of revolution as ridiculous and I hope you are correct and would love to be wrong...but either way, you heard it here first.

To put it bluntly, @#$! right off with this bullshit.

If you can produce oil here cheaper than what the saudis and russians are dumping it for then you might have a case for that. But no, it's not Canada's fault that they can't get their overpriced garbage to market.

It's a global pandemic, it's not the governments fault or the "socialists" or "communists" or whatever you want to falsely label people as.

You are also grossly underestimating the power of capitalism. Everyone will still want to go and buy all of that shiney shit and waste hard earned dollars on luxury items as soon as they can. They will also quickly forget about this blip in time and repeat the same mistakes, as usual. Stop trying to blame the rest of the world on your inadequacies. Go outside and have a cold beer and relax.

[pelmet]

Anyone who really believed that is not smart enough to hold down a job. However comfortable they might be and whatever they might say, how stupid would you have to be to think this can continue indefinitely? So I call a mild “bullshit” on that one.

The unions and in my opinion, the majority of Canadians want other people's money supplied to them. The whirlpool of economic destruction is starting to swirl faster and faster. Massive spending to pay people not to work or do a little bit of work, a war on one of our economic engines known as oil and the industries that use it, paying students not to work while foreigners are brought in to work temporary summer jobs, massive fraud with little concern.

To be honest with you, I can see that start of the destruction of of the western civilization empire with a slow motion socialist revolution happening before our eyes.

Laziness and feel good policies by the emotional people. It extends well beyond Canada and the US. The irresponsible are rewarded with excuses for their behaviour. It is quite fascinating to watch and how it is being implemented without the violent revolutions of the past. Through the majority of media and schools, step by step, piece by piece. With that in mind, I have started working on options for myself and you should too. The Rockie's of the world will cause calamity...either as being part of the large percentage of 'useful idiots' in society of the much smaller percentage of people who use the 'useful idiots' to their own end.

Some will laugh at my analysis of revolution as ridiculous and I hope you are correct and would love to be wrong...but either way, you heard it here first.

To put it bluntly, @#$! right off with this bullshit.

If you can produce oil here cheaper than what the saudis and russians are dumping it for then you might have a case for that. But no, it's not Canada's fault that they can't get their overpriced garbage to market.

It's a global pandemic, it's not the governments fault or the "socialists" or "communists" or whatever you want to falsely label people as.

You are also grossly underestimating the power of capitalism. Everyone will still want to go and buy all of that shiney shit and waste hard earned dollars on luxury items as soon as they can. They will also quickly forget about this blip in time and repeat the same mistakes, as usual. Stop trying to blame the rest of the world on your inadequacies. Go outside and have a cold beer and relax.

Oil prices are in a temporary lull as has happened repeatedly. That has little to do with the war on oil(especially Canadian oil in the last few years) and the whole green movement determined to crush the economy with their "useful 'need to feel good' idiots" elected to office, by many who are happy to accept that as the price for their parasitic behavior. When leaders and significant portions of the population worship a scolding 16 year old in the way they have done...society has a problem.

Anyways....You heard it here first. The revolution has started. You can watch it on the news as most of them are part of it. But....revolutions don't always get very far. We shall see. The pandemic is just an opportune moment to further the cause.

[rookiepilot]

Some will laugh at my analysis of revolution as ridiculous and I hope you are correct and would love to be wrong...but either way, you heard it here first.

You're an economic expert now?

Dude. Stay in your lane on posting CADORS.....Seriously....

[rookiepilot]

The airplanes are meticulously cleaned and disinfected between flights

Have you seen what many airplane seats and tray tables look like, including your carrier?

I've wished I've worn a hazmat suit more than once, flying....

[Rockie]

Have you seen what many airplane seats and tray tables look like, including your carrier?

Are you seriously asking an airline pilot that?

[pelmet]

Some will laugh at my analysis of revolution as ridiculous and I hope you are correct and would love to be wrong...but either way, you heard it here first.

You're an economic expert now?

And political too I suppose.