P180 job ad: "don't apply"

[co-joe]

There are 7 registered p180's in Canada.

And it's a cool machine. Just not sure there are a lot of current PPC's floating around the market place.

[tbaylx]

I have never understood this philosophy. The vast majority of the pilot population have no desire to stay 703 for their entire career. Both candidates in this scenario will leave. The only difference is the laid off major/regional pilot knows where they are going to leave to. Make them sign a bond to recoup your training costs, enjoy an employee with some real world experience and stop thinking that you will find a lifelong 703 pilot. You’re hunting for a unicorn.

Its very possible a 705 person has been "spoiled" and is rusty when it comes to all the planning and extra thought needed for a 703 job

I'm sure it would take them decades to remember all the 703 things they learned already before they got the 705 job....

[lownslow]

I’m torn. I can appreciate their honesty in the job ad, it just reads a little dickish. Enough to make me question whether the folks who wrote this are really people I want to work for over any long period.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I can appreciate the honesty. I'll stake my left nut that at least half the operators out there are thinking it, but not admitting to it.

It's in the same vein as posting remuneration up front - if we can't agree on a few basic starting points, we're just wasting each other's time.

[ayseven]

Things are rarely clear and up front in my experience in this business.

[complexintentions]

I just have one question.

What is a P180?

[kilo3bravo]

Piaggio Rinaldo Avanti

P180

[goldeneagle]

I just have one question.

What is a P180?

Piaggio. Kinda like a kingair that got turned wrong way around on the assembly line.

[fish4life]

Although they are impressively fast

[shimmydampner]

The notion of laid off airline pilots scoffing at a job ad on the one hand, while out of the other side of their mouths they whinge about being excluded from applying for said job, is rather amusing.

[mmm..bacon]

I'd fly that thing for free in return for the stiffy I'd get just from looking at it!

[ahramin]

The notion of laid off airline pilots scoffing at a job ad on the one hand, while out of the other side of their mouths they whinge about being excluded from applying for said job, is rather amusing.

Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.

[fur1ough]

I'd argue they're actually better off finding a forloughed pilot or one on an LOA, than just another corporate pilot who will jump ship to the next best thing as soon as they can.

[Dh8Classic]

Isn't it interesting to see so many connector pilots who had no problem greedily hogging most of the interviews and hiring at AC and reserving their seniority at Westjet(like they somehow deserved it) now not so happy that it has come back to bite them. You can read an example here.

viewtopic.php?p=1114269#p1114269

You took a gamble coming OTS and it didn’t payoff.

Well buddy, you took your gamble and now it is not paying off. Companies don't want you now because you will be gone at the first opportunity. An Off the Street Guy might be gone at the first opportunity as well but his opportunity will not happen nearly as soon as the guy with a seniority number.

It kind of reminds me of the pilots at the majors in the US. They were all too happy to exclude the guys with no degree from a wonderful high paying job simply because they flew for 4 years instead of getting a degree, even in something totally outside aviation(or having some other special qualification). Well now the guys with no degree will be going left seat of a widebody at a freighter company while the guys who had their jobs semi-reserved at the majors are soon to be out on the street.

A few of the no degree guys might be glad how the limited opportunities they had for unfair reasons have worked out for them in the end.

[fur1ough]

With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.

[valleyboy]

there will be a lot of fat trimming, WS is already doing it. any marginal routes will be gone, pilot numbers will not be the same and recall will be a long time coming for the real junior guys. it is becoming very clear to me the best aviation jobs right now and for that matter anytime, are the freight dogs. it's ironic that a freight company has the best collective agreement in the industry. passengers are fickle and we now find out how much health adds to the mix.

[ayseven]

I don't know who is "better off", but I do know that the guys who have been hired and now laid off from majors are going back some day, while the rest of us fight over the scraps. I sincerely feel for any of them, but the reality is that they have some security nobody else has, and there IS light at the end of the tunnel. It is just hard for them to have to keep fighting, when it took so long to get there in the first place, and they thought they could relax for once.

[digits_]

With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.

Posts in other topics seem to hint recall rights are limited in time. Is that incorrect?

[shimmydampner]

Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.

Really? Your takeaway from the caveat precluding recently laid off airline pilots from applying was that it's due to ops manager insecurities about the mad skills of all those laid off 2500 hour copilots?

[Turbolag]

Well,

I would suggest that the Piaggio can now be purchased for roughly 2 million USD; which is considerably cheaper than the nearly 7 million my old company used to get them for new. This could possibly allow an individual with lower net worth to operate this aircraft. This would mean that operationally, corners would be cut for salaries, maintenance and scheduling. Maybe.

If you also consider the limitations of the P180, this would support the conclusions above. The piaggio was designed to operate between major city centre airports in Europe for executives and the like. The piaggio is very weight limited when originally designed (MCTOW 11,550lbs) lending to one to two passengers with full fuel, no bags and you could run out of nose up trim on final with the right loading. So, short distances, light loads and occasional use. When brought to North America; larger loads over longer distances and put into fractional ownership companies with higher usage numbers the maintenance issues start to show. So I would ask myself, why did an operator choose this aircraft? Luxury at a bargain price? There are better aircraft out there in that category. Is it the price then?

With the right owner, and the proper staffing and maintenance behind it, the piaggio can be a very nice aircraft to operate. I believe this situation would be the exception to the rule when it comes to aviation operations in Canada unfortunately.

A job ad requesting high time and a bond and no laid-off airline staff points towards “what I need from you” rather than what our company is and what our focus and goals are and team we are trying to build, would make me think this would be a transitional posting for someone needing employment and hoping to move on. Hopefully I’m wrong.

Side note: the aircraft in question used to be owned by the RCMP for many years.