Open the door, no thanks

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Loon-A-Tic
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Open the door, no thanks

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

I'm thinking that access along the 49th parallel should stay closed for another little while given this intell. :shock:

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/this-map-sho ... -1.5012933
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Launchpad1
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by Launchpad1 »

That picture shows it very clearly, the difference between the US and Canada is huge! I agree, no way should the border re-open at the moment.
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HavaJava
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by HavaJava »

As with all data, the reality is much more nuanced than a simple twitter post can show.

Here’s the reality:

- the mortality rate in the US is plummeting. Nationally, it has been in the 0.5% range for a week.

- New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts were the basket cases of the US. They made horrible decisions in the beginning (such as sending sick patients back into long term care facilities) that led to a criminally large death rate. Their case rate is dropping, but their mortality rate is still up to 10 times higher than the rest of the nation.

- the media loves to paint states like Texas and Florida as a bunch of redneck idiots that can’t follow directions, however one thing that they are not mentioning is that their death rates are incredibly low. They are lower than Canada (94 and 176 per million respectively compared to 230 per million in Canada. On top of that, their death rate for the last week is in the 0.25% range. Even without correcting for unaccounted cases (up to 10x more), that puts COVID exactly in the seasonal flu mortality rate range.

So, there are really 2 ways to account for this. Either the Southern states are actually managing and treating the virus incredibly well or the virus is mutating into a much weaker form. Personally, I believe that as long as it is kept out of long term care homes (which New York, New Jersey, Ontario and Quebec so utterly failed at) it is a virus that is completely manageable and treatable.

So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us.
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Rooster69
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by Rooster69 »

Where did you get the mortality rate numbers?

Most of the information that I can find about Canadian numbers is just the infection rates. I can’t find death rates of the infected, nor the hospitalizations of those infected. Canadian information is scarce vie a vie secondary heath issues.
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photofly
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by photofly »

HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:56 am So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us.
I’m sorry... I had a fantasy that you started your post talking about “nuance”...
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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AirFrame
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by AirFrame »

HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:56 am As with all data, the reality is much more nuanced than a simple twitter post can show.
Right. Total deaths to date: US - 130,310, Can - 8,748. It doesn't get much more "nuanced" than that.
So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us.
Sure... They're teaching us that anti-vaxxers are right, that all you have to do is force all the sick people together, build immunity through transmission, and accept a high attrition rate in the interim.
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stef
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by stef »

Was this map pulled from social media by chance? At a glance, looks like Norway House, Nakina and La Grande are among our hotspots.
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lownslow
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by lownslow »

stef wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:14 am Was this map pulled from social media by chance? At a glance, looks like Norway House, Nakina and La Grande are among our hotspots.
Per capita, maybe? Or just made up.
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photofly
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by photofly »

I actually couldn’t find on a chart any evidence of human habitation close to where that red spot in Quebec is located. Must be a secret government site, visible only from those special COVID-19 detecting satellites Bill Gates created.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

HavaJava, please offer a bit more on this thought, I quote

"So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us."

Are you saying Canada needs to follow the America approach to managing the Coivd19 pandemic !!!
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mbav8r
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by mbav8r »

Rooster69 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:02 am Where did you get the mortality rate numbers?

Most of the information that I can find about Canadian numbers is just the infection rates. I can’t find death rates of the infected, nor the hospitalizations of those infected. Canadian information is scarce vie a vie secondary heath issues.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
I’ve been watching this site, not sure where they get the information, I believe it mentions the WHO as the source, at any rate it shows the US having a death rate twice of Canada’s per million.
You can also view individual states stats as well.
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BTD
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by BTD »

I believe worldometer and most places are getting their information from John Hopkins University.
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HavaJava
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by HavaJava »

Rooster69 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:02 am Where did you get the mortality rate numbers?

Most of the information that I can find about Canadian numbers is just the infection rates. I can’t find death rates of the infected, nor the hospitalizations of those infected. Canadian information is scarce vie a vie secondary heath issues.

Worldometer seems to be an accurate compiler of stats. They breakdown the US by states but unfortunately they don’t breakdown Canada by province.
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HavaJava
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by HavaJava »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:38 am
Rooster69 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:02 am Where did you get the mortality rate numbers?

Most of the information that I can find about Canadian numbers is just the infection rates. I can’t find death rates of the infected, nor the hospitalizations of those infected. Canadian information is scarce vie a vie secondary heath issues.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
I’ve been watching this site, not sure where they get the information, I believe it mentions the WHO as the source, at any rate it shows the US having a death rate twice of Canada’s per million.
You can also view individual states stats as well.
Yes, but the US’s death rate was heavily skewed by the brutal job the Northeastern states did in April/May. Since June the death rate is similar to Canada. If you look at just the southern states, it is much better than Canada.
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HavaJava
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by HavaJava »

Loon-A-Tic wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 am HavaJava, please offer a bit more on this thought, I quote

"So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us."

Are you saying Canada needs to follow the America approach to managing the Coivd19 pandemic !!!
Yup, the southern states have done an amazing job of managing and treating the virus. Time to learn how to live with Covid instead of the fools game of trying to eradicate it.
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Heliian
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by Heliian »

HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:56 am As with all data, the reality is much more nuanced than a simple twitter post can show.

Here’s the reality:

- the mortality rate in the US is plummeting. Nationally, it has been in the 0.5% range for a week.

- New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts were the basket cases of the US. They made horrible decisions in the beginning (such as sending sick patients back into long term care facilities) that led to a criminally large death rate. Their case rate is dropping, but their mortality rate is still up to 10 times higher than the rest of the nation.

- the media loves to paint states like Texas and Florida as a bunch of redneck idiots that can’t follow directions, however one thing that they are not mentioning is that their death rates are incredibly low. They are lower than Canada (94 and 176 per million respectively compared to 230 per million in Canada. On top of that, their death rate for the last week is in the 0.25% range. Even without correcting for unaccounted cases (up to 10x more), that puts COVID exactly in the seasonal flu mortality rate range.

So, there are really 2 ways to account for this. Either the Southern states are actually managing and treating the virus incredibly well or the virus is mutating into a much weaker form. Personally, I believe that as long as it is kept out of long term care homes (which New York, New Jersey, Ontario and Quebec so utterly failed at) it is a virus that is completely manageable and treatable.

So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us.
Your numbers are not real numbers of anything. The overall infected death rate is almost 5%

Per capita, the usa has 60% more deaths than us

Interestingly, our overall infected death rate is almost 8%, this I believe can be attributed to clusters of cases in the nursing homes.

Our numbers are dropping, we're doing well, keep up with the measures put in place and we'll be alright.

My numbers are from the WHO daily situation report #168
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flyguy73
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by flyguy73 »

HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:25 am
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 am HavaJava, please offer a bit more on this thought, I quote

"So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us."

Are you saying Canada needs to follow the America approach to managing the Coivd19 pandemic !!!
Yup, the southern states have done an amazing job of managing and treating the virus. Time to learn how to live with Covid instead of the fools game of trying to eradicate it.
Unfortunately, in many cases, deaths are not attributed to COVID-19, but rather to underlying reasons such as diabetes or heart disease. This is a new reporting technique in order to make it appear that mortality is not as bad as it really is.

Do you really think the Southern USA has a mortality that is 10% that of Germany? It is curious to note that the countries that are leading the way in terms of numbers of infections (USA, Brazil, Russia, India), have somehow managed to reduce the mortality markedly compared to other countries. What else is common among these countries?
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goldeneagle
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by goldeneagle »

HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:22 am Yes, but the US’s death rate was heavily skewed by the brutal job the Northeastern states did in April/May. Since June the death rate is similar to Canada. If you look at just the southern states, it is much better than Canada.
Well, if we are going to start cherry picking data, then for the Canadian numbers, if you exclude Ontario and Quebec, then numbers in Canada will once again look far better than those southern states you think are doing so well.

Numbers can tell a lot, and you can make them say anything you want when you start cherry picking data points.
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Rockie
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by Rockie »

HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:25 am
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 am HavaJava, please offer a bit more on this thought, I quote

"So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us."

Are you saying Canada needs to follow the America approach to managing the Coivd19 pandemic !!!
Yup, the southern states have done an amazing job of managing and treating the virus. Time to learn how to live with Covid instead of the fools game of trying to eradicate it.
Can you point to any medical or government source stating an intent, or even a faint hope of “eradicating” Covid 19? It’s called “managing”, something one half of the United States flatly refuses to do and now are paying for it. As for the mortality rate in the US, wait for it.
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HavaJava
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Re: Open the door, no thanks

Post by HavaJava »

Rockie wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:14 am
HavaJava wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:25 am
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:25 am HavaJava, please offer a bit more on this thought, I quote

"So, let’s keep the border closed...not because of those dirty diseased Americans...but because of Canadian incompetence and our inability to learn the important lessons the Southern States are teaching us."

Are you saying Canada needs to follow the America approach to managing the Coivd19 pandemic !!!
Yup, the southern states have done an amazing job of managing and treating the virus. Time to learn how to live with Covid instead of the fools game of trying to eradicate it.
Can you point to any medical or government source stating an intent, or even a faint hope of “eradicating” Covid 19? It’s called “managing”, something one half of the United States flatly refuses to do and now are paying for it. As for the mortality rate in the US, wait for it.

Ok...let’s wait 2 weeks for your doomsday to happen. When it doesn’t, will you admit that you were wrong?

Yeah, that’s what I thought...

I’m done arguing or even debating with people who are so ignorant to the facts and so obviously don’t give a damn about the medium to long term health/societal/economic impact in Canada.

For those that believe there is a better way forward in living with Covid, please don’t give up, even in the face of massive ignorance, arrogance, and fear.
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