Buying vs Renting

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tsgarp
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by tsgarp »

NotDirty! wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:14 am A wise man once told me that “if it floats, flies, or fu<ks, it is always cheaper to rent than to buy”.
...and will also make you cry at some point....
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PilotDAR
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by PilotDAR »

You've got to price out the options and how you benefit from either. Yes, renting, you can fly a greater number of types, with much less investment. But generally, extended use of the plane is less likely for you. If you own, you take it where you want to, when you want to, and there is no schedule for returning it. After renting my first hundred plus hours, and some appreciated ride alongs, I was offered a partnership in the mid '80's in either a 182, or a 310, both of which I had already flown quite a bit. I knew what it cost to operate them, as I had flown each a fair amount. I realized (a), I really could not afford that much by the hour to fly, and (b) neither could the owner, which was why he wanted to share out. If I can't afford it, I don't want to own it. So I bought a 150, because I could afford it. I still own it. I have taken it all over North America. I could not have ever rented for some of the trips I've taken. And, if you own [modest], you can still rent exotic every now and then.

There's no right answer, and even the cost can be hard to compare, it's more about how would you like to use the plane. If you're planning to fly only two one hour flights a month, just rent. If you want to fly a one a week, stop over for hours at a destination, and fly the occasional multi day trip, probably better to own...
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photofly
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by photofly »

PilotDAR wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:13 pmIf you're planning to fly only two one hour flights a month, just rent.
This raises an interesting point. I don’t believe a newly qualified pilot can reach or maintain a safe standard of pilot skill with only one or two hours a month.

To paraphrase someone helpful, If you have fewer than 1000 hours, you should plan to fly every day. That is, if you want to become a safe and competent pilot after obtaining your PPL you should expect to put in enough flight hours that the balance between renting and buying tips entirely to the buying side.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by PilotDAR »

I don’t believe a newly qualified pilot can reach or maintain a safe standard of pilot skill with only one or two hours a month.
Absolutely true, in my opinion! Though a parallel topic to the question asked. And the "newly qualified" element is the pivotal point. With many thousands of hours, I asked my insurance broker (who really does know his business) how little I would have to fly before they would be concerned about my skills from a currency perspective. His reply was an average of an hour a month. And, happily, my first flight, with an instructor after an unintended seven months away from flying, got a rating of "excellent", so my skills had not perished too much.

But, in my opinion, a new pilot needs at least an hour a month focused on practicing maneuvering and upper air emergencies, and another hour a month just doing circuits. So, if that's all you're doing in the plane you're renting, you're probably maintaining, and slightly building skills - but you're not taking passengers, nor going for cross countries. Those are more hours a month!

So, owning your plane means that you can jump in an go whenever you like, and for short periods if you like. Often, I'll fly a 0.4 up to Orillia and back (excellent restaurant there!). I didn't have to book three weeks in advance, hope for good weather, than actually put on 1.0 for an hour's booking. I fly several times a week, with multiple landings, so get my circuits in. I'll fly a half hour a month of upper air work, and I try to assure that some of my solo landings are actual power off from the downwind, for PFL practice.

So, I 100% agree with the following, and that's what I did 33 years ago...
That is, if you want to become a safe and competent pilot after obtaining your PPL you should expect to put in enough flight hours that the balance between renting and buying tips entirely to the buying side.
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Kejidog
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by Kejidog »

I bought a 172 in 2016 for $23000 canadian with 20 hours dual. Flew it for over 400 hours in four years cost me a grand total of $6000 in annual costs and a few upgrades. Sold it this July for well over $35000.

I flew whenever I wanted for as long as i liked and did four provinces in it. But i was fully employed and in my late forties when i did this. Now i own a 182 and flew it home from BC across the country during the so called deadly panicdemic. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you bullshit excuses as to why you can’t do something. Enjoy the ride.

Oh yeah your results may vary. But either way when those losers who rent are doing circuits to keep the costs down you’ll be goinig to lunch in another province with far more interesting people.
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anofly
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by anofly »

ouch... renters are not losers... they are renters... and or pilots...
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Heliian
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by Heliian »

Kejidog wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:02 pm I bought a 172 in 2016 for $23000 canadian with 20 hours dual. Flew it for over 400 hours in four years cost me a grand total of $6000 in annual costs and a few upgrades. Sold it this July for well over $35000.

I flew whenever I wanted for as long as i liked and did four provinces in it. But i was fully employed and in my late forties when i did this. Now i own a 182 and flew it home from BC across the country during the so called deadly panicdemic. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you bullshit excuses as to why you can’t do something. Enjoy the ride.

Oh yeah your results may vary. But either way when those losers who rent are doing circuits to keep the costs down you’ll be goinig to lunch in another province with far more interesting people.
So $1500/year in fixed costs? How much in total did you spend on your plane in 4 years? Did you have any maintenance done in that time?

How are the costs now on your 182? Do you fly floats?
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by TalkingPie »

Kejidog wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:02 pm I bought a 172 in 2016 for $23000 canadian with 20 hours dual. Flew it for over 400 hours in four years cost me a grand total of $6000 in annual costs and a few upgrades. Sold it this July for well over $35000.

I flew whenever I wanted for as long as i liked and did four provinces in it. But i was fully employed and in my late forties when i did this. Now i own a 182 and flew it home from BC across the country during the so called deadly panicdemic. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you bullshit excuses as to why you can’t do something. Enjoy the ride.

Oh yeah your results may vary. But either way when those losers who rent are doing circuits to keep the costs down you’ll be goinig to lunch in another province with far more interesting people.
If you insist on bandying about the word "losers," I suspect that there'll be more than a few pilots in their 20s (or younger) who will point out that not everyone considers a guy in his late 40s first learning to fly a C172 as the archetype of a "winner." They might wonder about your "bullshit excuses" for not learning to fly a plane much earlier in life, as they did.

Or we can all just accept that different people have different experiences and priorities and we could decide not to call complete strangers names for no reason. Jackass.
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cap41
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by cap41 »

A few intangibles..It's mine! Freedom, I fly when I want, where I want.

Plus every plane I've owned, I've sold in same price range as purchased. some a little less, some a little more.
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Kejidog
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by Kejidog »

TalkingPie wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:38 pm
Kejidog wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:02 pm I bought a 172 in 2016 for $23000 canadian with 20 hours dual. Flew it for over 400 hours in four years cost me a grand total of $6000 in annual costs and a few upgrades. Sold it this July for well over $35000.

I flew whenever I wanted for as long as i liked and did four provinces in it. But i was fully employed and in my late forties when i did this. Now i own a 182 and flew it home from BC across the country during the so called deadly panicdemic. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you bullshit excuses as to why you can’t do something. Enjoy the ride.

Oh yeah your results may vary. But either way when those losers who rent are doing circuits to keep the costs down you’ll be goinig to lunch in another province with far more interesting people.
If you insist on bandying about the word "losers," I suspect that there'll be more than a few pilots in their 20s (or younger) who will point out that not everyone considers a guy in his late 40s first learning to fly a C172 as the archetype of a "winner." They might wonder about your "bullshit excuses" for not learning to fly a plane much earlier in life, as they did.

Or we can all just accept that different people have different experiences and priorities and we could decide not to call complete strangers names for no reason. Jackass.

I am glad you knew that i was singling you out. Panzy
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by PilotDAR »

C'mon.... To each their own, and honest wisdom to someone who wants to learn and asks.... Would a group of like minded pilots chat over coffee like that? It's rather embarrassing!
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Kejidog
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by Kejidog »

Why yes Dar i totally agree with you. But as a guy of a certain age gets called out by a child that has some issues taxiing a plane without hitting a fuel pump i take umbrage at it. Besides with all my bandying about i am sure my hurtful post will be deleted by the moderators to keep anyone from feeling “unsafe”

Keep flying. At least those of us who can.
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by PilotDAR »

i am sure my hurtful post will be deleted by the moderators
Yeah, I was thinking that too - though I'm not a moderator here. Where I do moderate, what I read would be far over the line, but here, that's up to someone else...
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by jakeandelwood »

photofly wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:32 am
PilotDAR wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:13 pmIf you're planning to fly only two one hour flights a month, just rent.
This raises an interesting point. I don’t believe a newly qualified pilot can reach or maintain a safe standard of pilot skill with only one or two hours a month.

To paraphrase someone helpful, If you have fewer than 1000 hours, you should plan to fly every day. That is, if you want to become a safe and competent pilot after obtaining your PPL you should expect to put in enough flight hours that the balance between renting and buying tips entirely to the buying side.
And how does your average private pilot fly everyday when the weather is crap all winter and they have a full time job?
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Re: Buying vs Renting

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Kejidog wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:02 pm I bought a 172 in 2016 for $23000 canadian with 20 hours dual. Flew it for over 400 hours in four years cost me a grand total of $6000 in annual costs and a few upgrades. Sold it this July for well over $35000.

I flew whenever I wanted for as long as i liked and did four provinces in it. But i was fully employed and in my late forties when i did this. Now i own a 182 and flew it home from BC across the country during the so called deadly panicdemic. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you bullshit excuses as to why you can’t do something. Enjoy the ride.

Oh yeah your results may vary. But either way when those losers who rent are doing circuits to keep the costs down you’ll be goinig to lunch in another province with far more interesting people.
I own a plane but sometimes all I have time for is "loser" stuff like circuits. I'm not the Matt Guthmiller type with nothing but time and avgas. I can't fly "whenever I want" because I have a full time job and a wife and kid and a house to maintain, i fly when I can and when weather permits, it's not as much as id like but it keeps me happy.
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by PilotDAR »

Winter flying can make renting more attractive than owning in some cases. Unless you are keeping your plane in a hangar, and preheated as required, it can be very convenient to be handed the keys to an airplane which has been warmed up, and has no ice and snow on it!

I own two planes, and I fly practice circuits, practice forced landings (to a landing), and airworkat least several times a month. I consider them an important part of maintaining my skills.
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photofly
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by photofly »

jakeandelwood wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:54 pm And how does your average private pilot fly everyday when the weather is crap all winter and they have a full time job?
Not my problem, and not the unverse’s problem, either. Entirely Baby’s problem. WAH, Baby’s too busy or lazy or poor or lives in the wrong country, or the weather’s too bad to fly every day. Baby wants to be a great pilot. Not fair, not fair! Make Baby a great pilot! Right now! With no effort, and no sacrifice! Baby demands it! Baby deserves it!

The average private pilot is always going to suck, because the average private pilot doesn’t fly enough. If Baby cares enough about flying then Baby had better quit their job, move somewhere with better weather, or do whatever else it takes to fly every day. But whining about “Baby can’t” isn’t going to help.

I’d really love to become a champion downhill skier, but, you know what, I’m too lazy to go and buy some skis, so I guess that dream will have to wait.

Bottom line: if you aspire to nothing better than mediocre, rent.
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by jakeandelwood »

photofly wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:11 am
jakeandelwood wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:54 pm And how does your average private pilot fly everyday when the weather is crap all winter and they have a full time job?
Not my problem, and not the unverse’s problem, either. Entirely Baby’s problem. WAH, Baby’s too busy or lazy or poor or lives in the wrong country, or the weather’s too bad to fly every day. Baby wants to be a great pilot. Not fair, not fair! Make Baby a great pilot! Right now! With no effort, and no sacrifice! Baby demands it! Baby deserves it!

The average private pilot is always going to suck, because the average private pilot doesn’t fly enough. If Baby cares enough about flying then Baby had better quit their job, move somewhere with better weather, or do whatever else it takes to fly every day. But whining about “Baby can’t” isn’t going to help.

I’d really love to become a champion downhill skier, but, you know what, I’m too lazy to go and buy some skis, so I guess that dream will have to wait.

Bottom line: if you aspire to nothing better than mediocre, rent.
Do you know you can actually rent skis? You can get them right on the mountain, it's very convenient. You can also rent skis and become an excellent skier and not ski every day. you can also buy the best skis money can buy and suck even if you do ski everyday. so whats the point of this stupid debate? there are crappy private pilots and excellent private pilots, if they rent or own doesnt make any damn difference. there is also some ATP rated pilots that fly ILS to ILS on autopilot everday and suck, watch some Mayday episodes to see them in action.
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photofly
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by photofly »

I’m willing to bet that no private pilot reached excellence in rented airplanes.
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Re: Buying vs Renting

Post by Bede »

What a stupid argument. I am dumber for having read the last page on this thread.
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