"Uncontrolled" Control Zone? (CYZR)

[dALre]

Forgive me if this question sounds really dumb but I'm very confused right now with this airport, CYZR(Sarnia in Toronto area), and I need some clarification.

First of all, CYZR is ATF. So that means no controls at all.
But it's hard not to see that on the VNC, it has it's own E CZ.
How's that possible?

On CFS for CYZR, there are Unicom of 123.0, FISE, AWOS and PAL frequency but nothing about the FSS or something that would make E CZ as CZ.
I thought CZ MUST have their own FSS to operate from on or off the sight and this airport has none of them.
Then how and where can IFRs get clearance and VFRs get SVFR?


I feel like I'm missing a really big piece of the Canadian airspace system after I encounter this airport and I would be really appreciated for anybody enlightening me. Thank you.

[photofly]

Class E control zones allow ATC to impose IFR-IFR separation standards on arriving IFR traffic all the way to the ground. The agency responsible for the airspace is the area control centre.

Just like other in class E airspace, VFR traffic does not need a clearance nor is it required to be in contact with ATC to enter a class E control zone.

IFR traffic entering a class E control zone and encountering VMC should be prepared to mutually self-deconflict from VFR trafffic (see-and-avoid).

A class E control zone does not make an airport a controlled airport; a controlled airport has a local ATC unit (a control tower) and a class D or C (or, theoretically, class B) control zone. An aerodrome with a class E control zone is subject to the same rules of use as any other uncontrolled aerodrome in respect of ATF or MF procedures, whichever is in place there.

[Bavros]

A clearance can be obtained through the PAL, FISE, over the phone, or in the air with Toronto if able to depart vfr.

In addition VFR aircraft must use controlled airspace weather minima inside the control zone unless SVFR is approved.

[praveen4143]

Princeton BC is the exact same way.

[socsbrian]

I have the same confusion as OP.
What makes CYZR (Sarnia) so special that it deserves its own class E control zone?
It doesn't have a tower, and it has ATF only.

If we look at another airport, such as CYGD (Goderich), it doesn't have a tower, and also has ATF only, but it doesn't have a control zone.
So what class of airport is Goderich?
The floor of class E airspace starts at 3500ASL around that area, does it mean Goderich is a mix of class E and G....?

[photofly]

Back to ground school with you

No airport with a control tower can be class E during hours of tower operation. Class E means an ATC service is available (for the benefit of IFR traffic) but clearances would come from the nearest ACC. Clearly, a class E control zone goes down to the ground,

VFR traffic is not required to contact or accept instruction or clearances from ATC in class E airspace. That applies to all class E airspace, including class E control zones.

Controlled airspace weather minima must be observed in class E airspace. All the way to the ground, if the Class E airspace goes down to the ground.

Sarnia gets a Class E control zone probably because it has, or had, a scheduled air service and NavCanada and/or TC decided it would be appropriate. But it’s not busy enough for a control tower.

So what class of airport is Goderich?

Be careful with your terminology, and your confusion will vanish. Airports don’t come in different classes. Goderich is an uncontrolled aerodrome without a control zone, and therefore the airspace at the aerodrome is class G (uncontrolled).

An ATC clearance would not be available for arriving IFR aircraft, nor would one be required.

[NotDirty!]

An ATC clearance would not be available for arriving IFR aircraft, nor would one be required.

And you need to be careful with this statement. IIRC, the minimum IFR altitude in the YGD area will put you into controlled airspace, so an arriving IFR aircraft would require a clearance out of controlled airspace via a specified approach, and a departing aircraft would either have to depart and maintain VFR until able to pick up a clearance, or get an IFR clearance prior to departure.
As opposed to an airport where you are in class G airspace at and above the minimum IFR altitude, where you could possibly complete an entire IFR flight in uncontrolled airspace, and would not require a clearance at any time.

[photofly]

There are no approaches at CYGD, so there wouldn’t be any point having a class E control zone.

At the airport and to the North of it Class E airspace begins at 3500 MSL, and at the default of 2200 AGL along T616 to the south. The ground elevation is 700-900’.

The MOCA along T626 is 2700, where you’d actually be outside controlled airspace, and might be able to proceed from there to the airport on your own.

[NotDirty!]

There are no approaches at CYGD, so there wouldn’t be any point having a class E control zone.

At the airport and to the North of it Class E airspace begins at 3500 MSL, and at the default of 2200 AGL along T616 to the south. The ground elevation is 700-900’.

The MOCA along T626 is 2700, where you’d actually be outside controlled airspace, and might be able to proceed from there to the airport on your own.

I see RNAV approaches to 14 and 32. MSA is 2900, so you are correct, you could technically remain in class G and above MSA.

84CEC11D-8530-49F2-B80B-4691E2E1F340.jpeg (461.57 KiB) Viewed 2053 times

[photofly]

Yes, two RNAV approaches, you are correct. Both with MSA 2900. So you’d be cleared out of controlled airspace for the/an approach, at some point. Once you’re out of controlled airspace, no separation is provided from other aircraft. Going back the question about the difference between a class E and no control Zone, If another aircraft had shortly preceded you, that would not be the controllers problem any more.(I wonder what they would advise you? Probably to coordinate with The other aircraft on the Unicom frequency.)

If it had a class E control zone you would be cleared for the/an approach, with separation provided. If another aircraft had arrived recently, you’d have to hold, and not get the clearance until they had Cancelled IFR, confirmed landing by radio or phone, or gone missed, depending on radar coverage.

[rxl]

Yes, two RNAV approaches, you are correct. Both with MSA 2900. So you’d be cleared out of controlled airspace for the/an approach, at some point. Once you’re out of controlled airspace, no separation is provided from other aircraft. Going back the question about the difference between a class E and no control Zone, If another aircraft had shortly preceded you, that would not be the controllers problem any more.(I wonder what they would advise you? Probably to coordinate with The other aircraft on the Unicom frequency.)

If it had a class E control zone you would be cleared for the/an approach, with separation provided. If another aircraft had arrived recently, you’d have to hold, and not get the clearance until they had Cancelled IFR, confirmed landing by radio or phone, or gone missed, depending on radar coverage.

The missed approach altitude for the RNAV 14 into YGD is 5500’. ATC would have to protect the controlled airspace for an arriving IFR aircraft up to 6500’ wouldn’t they? In which case I don’t see how a following IFR flight could be “cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of Goderich” or below 6500’ until the preceding flight reports on the ground.
Not sure why the missed approach altitude is so high when the YGD MSA all quadrants is 2900’. It’s obviously not a terrain issue, so it might have something to do with proximity to YXU? Even if MAA was at MSA, I think protecting controlled airspace for a missed approach would delay a closely following IFR flight. RADAR coverage below 5500’ might be an issue here too.

[photofly]

We need to find an IFR controller to ask what needs protecting for an aircraft leaving controlled airspace for an approach. You might be right.

Maybe the first (or second) aircraft would be given alternate missed approach instructions.

[rookiepilot]

I've done the RNAV approach into Kapuskasing (Cyyu). Issued quite high, above 5000. Below 5000 radar coverage is lost, and soon after comm with YYZ centre. Terrain isn't an issue. It's a report on the ground via Pal if I recall without checking.

I forget the missed altitude (although I nearly did have to go missed the time I recall.)

[rxl]

I've done the RNAV approach into Kapuskasing (Cyyu). Issued quite high, above 5000. Below 5000 radar coverage is lost, and soon after comm with YYZ centre. Terrain isn't an issue. It's a report on the ground via Pal if I recall without checking.

I forget the missed altitude (although I nearly did)

MAA in Kap is 2300’ for both 17 and 35. Kap is also a Class “E” CZ to 3700’ with a FISE RCO from YXU radio, so on the ground or missed approach communication to ATC is relatively easy. Your approach clearance, as you said, for YYU comes from YYZ centre. You would have been in DCPC with them through their PAL based in YTS. When you get closer to YYU below a certain altitude, also as you said, comm to the PAL Is lost, so it’s just more efficient to issue the clearance directly at altitude rather than have to relay through YXU FSS.

Communication with ATC, I think, is the reason the MAA in YGD is so high ... to ensure comm with ATC in the event of a missed approach. Likely not possible at MSA.
Sorry for rambling!

[kevenv]

We need to find an IFR controller to ask what needs protecting for an aircraft leaving controlled airspace for an approach. You might be right.

Maybe the first (or second) aircraft would be given alternate missed approach instructions.

This is similar to CYCH which underlies controlled airspace (2200' agl) and the missed approach (NDB app) climbs back into controlled airspace. The a/c is cleared out of controlled airspace via the/an approach. Until the aircraft reports on or cancels IFR we have to protect for the missed approach altitude. Though the RNAV approaches have a missed approach altitude that remains in uncontrolled airspace, in practice it is treated the same as the NDB as in a missed approach the a/c will want to climb and do anther or go somewhere else. In CZBF where the base of controlled airspace is 12500' asl we observe on radar or by pilot report that the a/c is in uncontrolled airspace and can drive subsequent arrivals / departures ensuring traffic is passed as necessary.

Edited to add RNAV part.

[rxl]

We need to find an IFR controller to ask what needs protecting for an aircraft leaving controlled airspace for an approach. You might be right.

Maybe the first (or second) aircraft would be given alternate missed approach instructions.

This is similar to CYCH which underlies controlled airspace (2200' agl) and the missed approach (NDB app) climbs back into controlled airspace. The a/c is cleared out of controlled airspace via the/an approach. Until the aircraft reports on or cancels IFR we have to protect for the missed approach altitude. Though the RNAV approaches have a missed approach altitude that remains in uncontrolled airspace, in practice it is treated the same as the NDB as in a missed approach the a/c will want to climb and do anther or go somewhere else. In CZBF where the base of controlled airspace is 12500' asl we observe on radar or by pilot report that the a/c is in uncontrolled airspace and can drive subsequent arrivals / departures ensuring traffic is passed as necessary.

Edited to add RNAV part.

That helps! Thanks.
You must be YQM Centre.
Probably talked to you a few times on VHF.

[kevenv]

That helps! Thanks.
You must be YQM Centre.
Probably talked to you a few times on VHF.

Hopefully I didn't do anything stupid....

[rxl]

That helps! Thanks.
You must be YQM Centre.
Probably talked to you a few times on VHF.

Hopefully I didn't do anything stupid....

Me too!

[rxl]

That helps! Thanks.
You must be YQM Centre.
Probably talked to you a few times on VHF.

Hopefully I didn't do anything stupid....

Me too!

A geeky, academic question from a pilot perspective I suppose, but if you don’t mind, what determines the clearance you issue to an IFR flight inbound to an airport like we are talking about here? ... ie. an airport in Class “G” airspace which underlies Class “E” airspace.
What determines if you issue “Cleared to XXX airport for the XXX runway XXX approach” or “Cleared to XXX airport for AN approach” or “Cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of XXX”?

Thanks!

[kevenv]

A geeky, academic question from a pilot perspective I suppose, but if you don’t mind, what determines the clearance you issue to an IFR flight inbound to an airport like we are talking about here? ... ie. an airport in Class “G” airspace which underlies Class “E” airspace.
What determines if you issue “Cleared to XXX airport for the XXX runway XXX approach” or “Cleared to XXX airport for AN approach” or “Cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of XXX”?

Thanks!

If the airport is in uncontrolled airspace you would not be cleared to the CXXX airport for an approach, specific or otherwise. You will (read should) be cleared out of controlled airspace:

1. via a specific approach ("via NDB RWY 09 approach at CYCH")
2. via a non specific approach ("via an approach at CYCH"); or
3. "in the vicinity of CYCH" (and given an appropriate min IFR altitude). This one I don't think I have heard in relation to CYCH. More used in CYCL and CZBF where base of controlled airspace is 125.

Cleared for a specific approach vs a non specific approach:
Normally a specific approach is specified at airports where we can apply / run arrival vs departure separation (controlled airspace). This locks the arriving a/c to a specific route / approach so we can accurately determine a "cutoff" time for a departure to get airborne ahead of him. A non specific approach clx can be used if there is no traffic and you don't care what the a/c does. You do though, shut down the airport for other IFR arrivals/departures. Not used with a tower (at least where I work).

At airports like CYCH, CYPD, CCN2 etc in uncontrolled airspace below class E, it's one in one out. Departure airborne before approach given or arrival on, cancels before a departure can go. Of course in uncontrolled airspace there is nothing preventing the departure from taking off and calling for clx prior to entering controlled airspace.