When is a 604 AOC Required?

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Dronepiper
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When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by Dronepiper »

I have a couple random questions:

Can you hold a TBM Type rating as a high time private pilot, or do you need a CPL/IATRA?

When are you required to have a 604 AOC? What is the main difference between 604 and 703?
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photofly
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by photofly »

There's no such thing as a 604 OC, or a private operator certificate, any more. There is such a thing as a private operator registration document.

The basic difference between 604 and anything in Part VII is that 604 doesn't allow paying passengers; it's (eg) for company (or individually owned) private aircraft of a certain complexity and/or size.


604.02 This Subpart applies to the following Canadian aircraft:

(a) large aeroplanes;
(b) turbine-powered aircraft;
(c) pressurized aircraft; and
(d) multi-engined aircraft.

604.03 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate any of the following Canadian aircraft for the purpose of transporting passengers or goods unless the person is the holder of a private operator registration document:

(a) a large aeroplane;
(b) a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane; or
(c) a turbine-powered pressurized aeroplane certificated for more than six passenger seats.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the operation of an aircraft referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) to (c) by
(a) an air operator who operates the aircraft in accordance with the requirements of Part VII; or
(b) a person who operates the aircraft under a flight permit issued under section 507.04.
A TBM is turbine powered and pressurized, but is not certificated for more than six passenger seats so you do not need (nor can you have) a private operator registration document for it.

You can hold a type rating for a TBM on a PPL as long as you meet the requirements listed in CARS Standard 421.40(3)(c) - ground training on type, minimum 200 hours in your logbook, and a qualifying flight. Good luck with finding insurance.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Cessna 180
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by Cessna 180 »

photofly wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:18 pm There's no such thing as a 604 OC, or a private operator certificate, any more. There is such a thing as a private operator registration document.

The basic difference between 604 and anything in Part VII is that 604 doesn't allow paying passengers; it's (eg) for company (or individually owned) private aircraft of a certain complexity and/or size.


604.02 This Subpart applies to the following Canadian aircraft:

(a) large aeroplanes;
(b) turbine-powered aircraft;
(c) pressurized aircraft; and
(d) multi-engined aircraft.

604.03 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate any of the following Canadian aircraft for the purpose of transporting passengers or goods unless the person is the holder of a private operator registration document:

(a) a large aeroplane;
(b) a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane; or
(c) a turbine-powered pressurized aeroplane certificated for more than six passenger seats.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to the operation of an aircraft referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) to (c) by
(a) an air operator who operates the aircraft in accordance with the requirements of Part VII; or
(b) a person who operates the aircraft under a flight permit issued under section 507.04.
A TBM is turbine powered and pressurized, but is not certificated for more than six passenger seats so you do not need (nor can you have) a private operator registration document for it.

You can hold a type rating for a TBM on a PPL as long as you meet the requirements listed in CARS Standard 421.40(3)(c) - ground training on type, minimum 200 hours in your logbook, and a qualifying flight. Good luck with finding insurance.
I believe you can actually get a PORD for any aircraft, voluntarily. It's the only way to obtain Ops Specs (Special Authorizations). It the USA, operators under Part 91 can get Letters of Authorizations similarly. A nessesity to operate in RVSM airsapce, reduced vis, RCAP approach, etc.

the logical solution for a private owner to fly a turbine aircraft is to well, operate it N registered.
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ahramin
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by ahramin »

Cessna 180 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:36 pmI believe you can actually get a PORD for any aircraft, voluntarily.
If you have any evidence of this please forward it. A client of mine tried to get one for his RV6 so he could fly RCAP approaches and was told it would require a changing the CARs.
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photofly
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by photofly »

I also asked about it, for the same reason, and was told it wasn’t possible.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
flyinhigh
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by flyinhigh »

I know one person that has the TBM under the private operators document. It is purely to utilize the Ops Spec for RVSM.

PM sent to you.
photofly wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:50 am I also asked about it, for the same reason, and was told it wasn’t possible.
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Heliian
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by Heliian »

flyinhigh wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:34 am I know one person that has the TBM under the private operators document. It is purely to utilize the Ops Spec for RVSM.

PM sent to you.
photofly wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:50 am I also asked about it, for the same reason, and was told it wasn’t possible.
RVSM and RCAP are 2 different entities requiring authorization. A TBM compliant for RVSM, yes. Whomever joe ppl, rcap, no.

The PORD also requires more currency and document control, not really worth it for one small plane either.
Cessna 180 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:36 pm well, operate it N registered.
Since we're using the american regs for RVSM, it makes no difference, you still have to be registered for the SA, as found here:

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/refere ... 039#toc1-0
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Cessna 180
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by Cessna 180 »

Heliian wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:02 am
flyinhigh wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:34 am I know one person that has the TBM under the private operators document. It is purely to utilize the Ops Spec for RVSM.

PM sent to you.
photofly wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:50 am I also asked about it, for the same reason, and was told it wasn’t possible.
RVSM and RCAP are 2 different entities requiring authorization. A TBM compliant for RVSM, yes. Whomever joe ppl, rcap, no.

The PORD also requires more currency and document control, not really worth it for one small plane either.
Cessna 180 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:36 pm well, operate it N registered.
Since we're using the american regs for RVSM, it makes no difference, you still have to be registered for the SA, as found here:

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/refere ... 039#toc1-0
You can get a Letter of Authorization from your FSDO to conduct RVSM, along with a number of other authorizations (NATS, RNP, ADS-B) for Part 91 Ops. A LOA is the name the FAA gave for Special Authorizations to private operators, much like Ops Specs for commercial operators.

Part 604 registration is not required for foreign operators, unlike CAR 701 for foreign commercial operators. Private operators have to comply with the authorizations of their home state, which in this case is through a LOA from the FAA.

I checked TCs website for anything that would prohibit you from applying for a PORD with a small airplane, but it doesn't mention it. I seriously doubt they would approve any SAs for a piston single.
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Axial Flow
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Re: When is a 604 AOC Required?

Post by Axial Flow »

4.1 Regulation Applicability

(1) The regulations in subpart 604 of the CARs only apply to operators of the aircraft listed in section 604.02 of the CARs – Applicability. Although every operator of an aircraft listed in section 604.02 of the CARs is eligible to register as a Private Operator, not every operator of an aircraft listed in section 604.02 of the CARs is required to register as a Private Operator.

Note: The operators of the aircraft listed in subsection 604.03(1) of the CARs Prohibition must register as a Private Operator, unless they are operating in accordance with Part VII of the CARs or under a flight permit issued under Airworthiness Standard 507 of the CARs.

(2) Operators of the aircraft listed in section 604.02 of the CARs, but that are not listed in subsection 604.03(1) of the CARs must register as private operators only if they are seeking a Special Authorization in accordance with Division IV of the CARs.

"604.02 This Subpart applies to the following Canadian aircraft:
(b) turbine-powered aircraft;

(c) pressurized aircraft; and




To gain 2000 feet you will need to register, be the Chief Pilot, Operations Manager, have a training program, and have an SMS system amongst other things. For what that 2000 feet will give you, I would suggest just enjoying the freedom at FL280.


Note: With regard to paragraph 604.03(1)(c) of the CARs: The Aircraft Type Certificate for each model aircraft specifies the maximum number of passengers that may be transported. Aircraft owners who elect to reduce the maximum number of passengers to six (6) or less through a Supplementary Type Certificate (STC) are still required to obtain a Private Operator Registration Document (PORD). The requirement for a PORD is based on the maximum number of passengers listed for that aircraft in the original Type Certificate.
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