The clubhouse.....

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youhavecontrol
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by youhavecontrol »

In regards to the "clubhouse" in the real world, or online... I was a member of a flying club as a kid and while I didn't really see or understand everything, what I saw didn't exactly give me the greatest impression of the real-world GA community. One of my last memories of that club was when I visited the airshow after getting my commercial license. I was looking forward to catching-up with some of the members. Seeing two of the senior members, both in their late 60's fighting loudly like angry kids in front of a crowd of people while wearing their "volunteer" shirts, because of where one of them parked their airplane had a lasting impact on me. I was embarrassed for them. Some of my friends who flew regularly and professionally even left the club because it was "just an old man's social club." Sometimes I get a similar impression here, but it's not necessarily better in person than online. Aviation by nature has a lot of egos, story telling and comparing.

As for the anonymity, I don't like to say who I am or who I work for because I want to protect my company and myself.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by CpnCrunch »

youhavecontrol wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:37 pm In regards to the "clubhouse" in the real world, or online... I was a member of a flying club as a kid and while I didn't really see or understand everything, what I saw didn't exactly give me the greatest impression of the real-world GA community. One of my last memories of that club was when I visited the airshow after getting my commercial license. I was looking forward to catching-up with some of the members. Seeing two of the senior members, both in their late 60's fighting loudly like angry kids in front of a crowd of people while wearing their "volunteer" shirts, because of where one of them parked their airplane had a lasting impact on me. I was embarrassed for them. Some of my friends who flew regularly and professionally even left the club because it was "just an old man's social club." Sometimes I get a similar impression here, but it's not necessarily better in person than online. Aviation by nature has a lot of egos, story telling and comparing.

As for the anonymity, I don't like to say who I am or who I work for because I want to protect my company and myself.
Absolutely agree. I've seen absolutely terrible clubs in real-life, with crazy people who threaten violence for imagined transgressions and make up weird shit about members they don't like. It really all comes down to the people in charge. Overall, avcanada seems to have the balance right. The only thing that would be nice would be if the OP of a thread had permission to delete the crud, but I don't know if that is possible in phpbb.
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YYZSaabGuy
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

tsgarp wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:41 am
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:25 am Then -- I expect if the community is serious about this being a respectful clubhouse -- that being, people can disagree on many things --- the NEXT time someone is Personally attacked as to Who they are -- not what they believe is good flying habits -- the "clubhouse" is an illusion.

Or AvCan can follow Twitter and create a BLOCKED function. Then those who attack people's marriages, or my accident, or anything else, --- I recall BPF getting trolled a lot awhile back --- get cut off from all discussion.

I think we all know where the line is. This isn't hard.

Want to run your mouth that way, on my Twitter feed? You get blocked, and don't get to read the productive stuff.

Hoe about it? Let's have a a view on that option?
Cancel culture is a cure that is much worse than any disease it treats. Listening to asshats is the price that must be paid for open exchange of ideas.
Listening to differing opinions, not listening to asshats, is the price that must be paid for the open exchange of ideas.

Rookiepilot is not talking about disrupting the free exchange of ideas, which everyone (depending whose ox is being gored :D ) supports. He's not talking about canceling posters who may not always make a lot of sense: we're all grownups here and as such presumably have the ability to reconcile conflicting perspectives to arrive at a reasoned conclusion. And he's not talking about cancelling cancel culture.

He's talking about dealing with people who lack self-control or any semblance of discretion, and who cannot help expressing themselves in any but the most negative and ad hominem of ways. Consistently. You know, the kind of disrespectful asshats who managed to get themselves perma-banned from here and now spend their days dripping venom and indulging their world-view over on that other place.

And he's 100% correct.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

youhavecontrol wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:37 pm As for the anonymity, I don't like to say who I am or who I work for because I want to protect my company and myself.
Emphasis mine. Also a very valid point I hadn't considered. There may be excellent reasons for not identifying yourself here to protect your company, especially for those of us who have advanced to management.
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

digits_ wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:31 pm Well that hurts.

I added you as a friend as a test, and I was expecting daisies, rainbows and unicorns around your posts, but that doesn't seem to happen either.
I'm sorry, what? I can't see your post :rofl:
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:07 pm
tsgarp wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:41 am
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:25 am Then -- I expect if the community is serious about this being a respectful clubhouse -- that being, people can disagree on many things --- the NEXT time someone is Personally attacked as to Who they are -- not what they believe is good flying habits -- the "clubhouse" is an illusion.

Or AvCan can follow Twitter and create a BLOCKED function. Then those who attack people's marriages, or my accident, or anything else, --- I recall BPF getting trolled a lot awhile back --- get cut off from all discussion.

I think we all know where the line is. This isn't hard.

Want to run your mouth that way, on my Twitter feed? You get blocked, and don't get to read the productive stuff.

Hoe about it? Let's have a a view on that option?
Cancel culture is a cure that is much worse than any disease it treats. Listening to asshats is the price that must be paid for open exchange of ideas.
I don't believe rookiepilot is talking about "cancelling". I think he means an individually controllable block list, so should I decide that rookiepilot is a complete fuckwad (or if I realize I tend to spout off at the mouth after his posts even), I can decide for myself not to see his posts any longer - without forcing that opinion on everyone. If enough people do that to enough fuckwads, the overall level of troll will decrease.

I would completely be in favour of such a function.
Correct, as is YYZ as to my intentions.
We can do better, without losing spirited debates. All I'm saying.

I have 1800 followers on Twitter, for some bizarre reason. It's a business / trading feed.
I've had to block maybe 5 people in several years.
Because the option exists, and maybe people want to hear my useless blather, it's rarely needed. Others have upwards of 20,000 followers, and the same applies.

I never block for disagreements, only extreme, ugly, personal rudeness.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by challenger_nami »

If a person does not have their identity listed, then that person does not have to worry about being bullied about his/her divorce.... or previous accident, or what have you.

Only ideas have to be shared on this forum, in accordance with AvCanada’s Posting etiquette. And the person participating in the website, must have the tolerance for the viewed content ... and also for his/her ideas to be FAIRLY scrutinized.
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Last edited by challenger_nami on Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

challenger_nami wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:42 pm

Only ideas have to be shared in this forum, in accordance with AvCanada’s Posting etiquette. And the person participating in the website, must have the tolerance for the viewed content for his/her ideas to be scrutinized.
That is the nub of the problem. There is a subset of posters who take any disagreement with what they said as a personal insult and respond by attacking the posters. There also seems to be a strong correlation between those folks and a complete inability to admit they are could ever wrong about anything and look at every issue with a completely closed mind.

Personally I think the moderators have done a pretty good job of banning those individuals that are egregious offenders. However there are always going to those who push the boundaries and for those I think ignoring then rather than engaging them is the best strategy.

Personally I also prioritize the posts I look at by the poster. There are some that I just skip over and others that I will always carefully read.

At the end of the day I get enough out of Avcanada to make it worth reading. There was a period in the past where I stopped looking at or contributing to the site because it had largely been taken over by haters, trolls and flamers. Fortunately the moderators stepped up and largely cleaned things up.

I post in the spirit of paying it forward as I have benefitted from the advice of many talented pilots and AME is the 43 years I have been flying.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by challenger_nami »

@BigPistons,
I totally agree with you.

Cheers to the day when all of us who participate in this forum can work together for the sake of a civil discussion. No matter how much we may disagree.





.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Squaretail »

So was this all so some people could figure out how to use the Foe list?
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by PilotDAR »

Personally I also prioritize the posts I look at by the poster.
Yes, me too. Though I don't know the "real names" of many posters here, I recall many by their AvCanada name, and read (or not) their posts according to my impression of the value of their posts. I got to know a name, and it serves just fine in helping me to discern - it's just a nick name different to a real name. As pointed out to me recently, I do have the choice as to what I read, and the responsibility to exercise that choice (and not complain). So, generally, it does not interest me the real world identity of posters, the AvCanada name is enough.

For the posters with whom I would like to connect in the real world, it has never been a problem, and always always very worthwhile from my point of view. For those who want to find me in the real world, it does not seem to have been a problem for them. Otherwise, the anonymity I have here, serves me elsewhere as I intend.

Whether in person at the clubhouse, or here, there are excellent contributors, and a few I'm content to pass by. Just here, I can't supplement my opinion based on expression and body language, it's all what I read, so I have to be just a little more discerning....
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by albertdesalvo »

Squaretail wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:57 pmSo was this all so some people could figure out how to use the Foe list?
Every internet forum has something similar. Not to mention the issue has been debated here countless times. (yawn)
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Squaretail »

digits_ wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:30 pm
Isn't that one just as private/public as this one?
It is, but the main members have touted the lack of anonymity of the biggest posters as a positive aspect. Its now just a bunch of guys agreeing with one another. Its not very active, and not much new gets posted there.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

PilotDAR wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:00 pm
Personally I also prioritize the posts I look at by the poster.
Yes, me too. Though I don't know the "real names" of many posters here, I recall many by their AvCanada name, and read (or not) their posts according to my impression of the value of their posts. I got to know a name, and it serves just fine in helping me to discern - it's just a nick name different to a real name. As pointed out to me recently, I do have the choice as to what I read, and the responsibility to exercise that choice (and not complain). So, generally, it does not interest me the real world identity of posters, the AvCanada name is enough.

For the posters with whom I would like to connect in the real world, it has never been a problem, and always always very worthwhile from my point of view. For those who want to find me in the real world, it does not seem to have been a problem for them. Otherwise, the anonymity I have here, serves me elsewhere as I intend.

Whether in person at the clubhouse, or here, there are excellent contributors, and a few I'm content to pass by. Just here, I can't supplement my opinion based on expression and body language, it's all what I read, so I have to be just a little more discerning....
I'm a bit confused by this post Dar. You began the thread seeking to effect change -- which I think is admirable -- in seeing this site as more of a "community clubhouse" -- by exhorting other members.

This post seems to say, just walk by and engage when it suits the poster, or pass by.

I seek to challenge and effect positive change, and not just here. I see you as the same. That's a compliment!

Don't give up on that aspiration. This site can be excellent, not just "pretty good", or "better" as it's been described.

That means, if we aren't using real names, and we aren't setting up a block function, and even if we are, that obviously abusive posters are publicly called out and challenged.

In my view there are still posters on this site that should be permanently banned. Period.

I have done this -- challenge the abusers -- and I expect the site "leaders" to also do this.

If someone was abusing your copilot or FA, you'd stick up for them, Captains? Then do it here. It's not acceptable to say "that's just part of a free exchange of ideas".

No, it isn't. Some people are going through a rough time in their personal life. I've been there, too, and talked openly about it. They shouldn't be abused, nor forced to leave the community because of targeted trolling.

Otherwise the "clubhouse" you aspire to in creating this thread will never happen.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by PilotDAR »

You began the thread seeking to effect change
Not so much change, just an emphasis on courteous conduct, and respect for other members. Whether a member can be identified in the real world by name or not, does not influence how they should be treated. I am unwilling to accept a degeneration in conduct in this clubhouse, or a real one, I just won't care to come any more.

As would be the case in a real clubhouse, if some/new/junior/wannabe attendees are rude and annoying to established members, the established members won't attend/contribute any more. Who wins when that happens?
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by tsgarp »

YYZSaabGuy wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:33 pm
tsgarp wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:41 am
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:25 am Then -- I expect if the community is serious about this being a respectful clubhouse -- that being, people can disagree on many things --- the NEXT time someone is Personally attacked as to Who they are -- not what they believe is good flying habits -- the "clubhouse" is an illusion.

Or AvCan can follow Twitter and create a BLOCKED function. Then those who attack people's marriages, or my accident, or anything else, --- I recall BPF getting trolled a lot awhile back --- get cut off from all discussion.

I think we all know where the line is. This isn't hard.

Want to run your mouth that way, on my Twitter feed? You get blocked, and don't get to read the productive stuff.

Hoe about it? Let's have a a view on that option?
Cancel culture is a cure that is much worse than any disease it treats. Listening to asshats is the price that must be paid for open exchange of ideas.
Listening to differing opinions, not listening to asshats, is the price that must be paid for the open exchange of ideas.
The difficulty is that for many people the definition of asshat rapidly devolves into anyone who can't be persuaded to adopt a certain point of view. This rapidly mutates into censorship a leads to marked polarization. We've seen it throughout history, and we are seeing it today.

If someone is truly an asshat, the population at large will recognize that a ignore them.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

I've had the entire "mental health in Covid" thread deleted, because poster(s) decided it was a fun thread to hijack it and mock the entire topic of mental health for pilots.

I won't see that topic mocked, when the numbers are absolutely exploding throughout Canada.

The community who find that kind of topic as important as I do, loses out. You all have the site you want, I suppose, until it affects someone close to you.

Have a nice day.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:23 am I've had the entire "mental health in Covid" thread deleted, because poster(s) decided it was a fun thread to hijack and mock the entire topic of mental health for pilots.

The community who find that kind of topic as important as I do, loses.
What's mocking about posting the regulations that state you'll lose your medical if you get medicated for depression as a pilot? I'd say it's a pretty important factor in a discussion about mental health for pilots.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:28 am
rookiepilot wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:23 am I've had the entire "mental health in Covid" thread deleted, because poster(s) decided it was a fun thread to hijack and mock the entire topic of mental health for pilots.

The community who find that kind of topic as important as I do, loses.
What's mocking about posting the regulations that state you'll lose your medical if you get medicated for depression as a pilot? I'd say it's a pretty important factor in a discussion about mental health for pilots.
You don't think every commercial pilot isn't very aware of those regulations? No..............not buying.

Completely disagree as to intent and where the thread was headed. Some really sick individuals out there, who need therapy, and surely shouldn't be holding a pilot's licence, driver's licence or any kind of license.

I really wonder about their wives, if this is brought into their homes. Too many abusers out there, too.

Restart a new thread, Digits, if you wish.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by PilotDAR »

I would like to quote myself from last October:
So, while finding them in the AvCanada clubhouse, I still want to convey courtesy, and appreciation. And, for the new wannabe pilots who have come here, similarly, I want to appear to be courteous, and appreciate that they are interested in joining our passion. We need new pilots, more than every! And it's a much steeper hill than when I did it in the '70's.

So, aside form the occasional clarification, or defense, I would like to portray, receive, and generally see, conduct around here, which is at least as polite as would be the case if we were all sitting around with coffee. Why would anything less be acceptable - because people are anonymous? Pish posh!
A recent thread was a total embarrassment - you all know which one! If I were the Chief Pilot, and I heard the pilot applicants bickering like that amongst themselves while waiting for a job interview, they would not even get into my office! Isn't it an important element to be able to at least get along with the other person, if not encourage and inspire them?

A new person introduces themselves, asks for some support, and is generally treated pretty poorly, how does that make our industry look like somewhere they would like to invest in their training.

ALL of us, who are in aviation in Canada are to some degree dependent upon new pilots coming along. Why give them the cold shoulder when they do?
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