What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

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Dronepiper
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What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Dronepiper »

Hello,

My boss owns a "non aviation" incorporated business in Alberta. He wants to buy a Cessna 210 for business travel. The plane would be registered under his corporation. He wants me to fly it for him. I would mostly transport my boss, other executives, and maybe their family members. None of them would pay for this service as it would be business related. We would not be selling seats. I do possess my ATPL.

I have multiple questions:

1. Do we need an AOC?
2. If not, do we need to notify TC of anything?
3. What CAR rules do we fall under?
4. Can I be paid as a Pilot? Can my job description include the word "Pilot"?

Covid made things interesting, but I am hoping to get back into the sky.

Thanks!
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photofly
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by photofly »

1. no
2. no
3. 605
4. yes, and yes

Don't fly any customers - or potential customers - of the company.
maybe their family members.
If it's not legitimately for business purposes, this has severe tax implications. CRA will try to assess a taxable benefit equivalent to a first class airline seat between the same two points (if the plane was going anyway and family is tagging along for fun), or at least the cost of a commercial charter (if the trip was entirely for non business purposes). But that's between your employer, the familly, and the CRA, and nothing to do with TC.
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photofly
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by photofly »

double post
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Dronepiper
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Dronepiper »

photofly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 pm 1. no
2. no
3. 605
4. yes, and yes

Don't fly any customers - or potential customers - of the company.
maybe their family members.
If it's not legitimately for business purposes, this has severe tax implications. CRA will try to assess a taxable benefit equivalent to a first class airline seat between the same two points (if the plane was going anyway and family is tagging along for fun), or at least the cost of a commercial charter (if the trip was entirely for non business purposes). But that's between your employer, the familly, and the CRA, and nothing to do with TC.

Did you mean to say 604? 605 is just basic aircraft requirements.
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Dronepiper
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Dronepiper »

When you say don't fly any customers? What if those customers are construction clients that just want to go for a fun sightseeing flight? Let's even say my Boss is on board. They wouldn't pay for the flight, and any money they give the company would be for services unrelated to the flight.
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photofly
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by photofly »

604 is for big airplanes (see the text for details). This usage is no different to buying a 210 yourself and registering it under your name. As long as there's no sniff of flying passengers or cargo for "reward" then it doesn't matter who flies in it, and any CPL can fly it and be paid to fly it.
What if those customers are construction clients that just want to go for a fun sightseeing flight? Let's even say my Boss is on board. They wouldn't pay for the flight, and any money they give the company would be for services unrelated to the flight.
I would say if they're giving money to a company and that company is flying them, then they're paying for the flight. The arrangements on paper are irrelevant. There's an outfitter that got dinged (upheld at the tribunal) for flying customers up to a lodge. It was only charging them for the lodge, and not the flight, but that was enough. But I'm not qualified to give you a decision you can rely on, you'd need a lawyer for that. All I know is that there is no mercy shown if you get hauled up in front of the beak.
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rigpiggy
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by rigpiggy »

photofly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 pm
Don't fly any customers - or potential customers - of the company.
maybe their family members.
If it's not legitimately for business purposes, this has severe tax implications. CRA will try to assess a taxable benefit equivalent to a first class airline seat between the same two points (if the plane was going anyway and family is tagging along for fun), or at least the cost of a commercial charter (if the trip was entirely for non business purposes). But that's between your employer, the familly, and the CRA, and nothing to do with TC.
Yet Trudeau pays for the lowest economy class ticket for use of a challenger or A310.......anybody else see something wrong here?
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goldeneagle
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by goldeneagle »

rigpiggy wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am Yet Trudeau pays for the lowest economy class ticket for use of a challenger or A310.......anybody else see something wrong here?
When our national security folks wont let the prime minister travel on public transit, then unless you have a more constructive suggestion, why make a big issue out of it? It's really easy to bitch from the cheap seats when you dont have to provide a constructive alternative.
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wallypilot
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by wallypilot »

Dronepiper wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:10 pm
photofly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 pm 1. no
2. no
3. 605

Did you mean to say 604? 605 is just basic aircraft requirements.
Well, you’d operate subject to all the applicable CARS Of course, but being just a C210, I’ll save you the time to let you know that, among other sections, CARS604 and all CARS700 series would not apply. So it’s as easy as buy airplane, register it, get insurance, get company to pay you and then go fly in compliance with CARS. So yes, CARS 605 applies as does some of CARS 400, and CARS 600, 601, etc as they do to all private owners. Pm me if you want to discuss in more detail, I have experience with a similar situation.
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ahramin
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by ahramin »

Dronepiper wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:50 pm Hello,

My boss owns a "non aviation" incorporated business in Alberta. He wants to buy a Cessna 210 for business travel. The plane would be registered under his corporation. He wants me to fly it for him. I would mostly transport my boss, other executives, and maybe their family members. None of them would pay for this service as it would be business related. We would not be selling seats. I do possess my ATPL.

I have multiple questions:

1. Do we need an AOC?
2. If not, do we need to notify TC of anything?
3. What CAR rules do we fall under?
4. Can I be paid as a Pilot? Can my job description include the word "Pilot"?

Covid made things interesting, but I am hoping to get back into the sky.

Thanks!
Just curious, do you have a CPL?
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telex
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by telex »

ahramin wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:14 pm
Dronepiper wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:50 pm Hello,

My boss owns a "non aviation" incorporated business in Alberta. He wants to buy a Cessna 210 for business travel. The plane would be registered under his corporation. He wants me to fly it for him. I would mostly transport my boss, other executives, and maybe their family members. None of them would pay for this service as it would be business related. We would not be selling seats. I do possess my ATPL.

I have multiple questions:

1. Do we need an AOC?
2. If not, do we need to notify TC of anything?
3. What CAR rules do we fall under?
4. Can I be paid as a Pilot? Can my job description include the word "Pilot"?

Covid made things interesting, but I am hoping to get back into the sky.

Thanks!
Just curious, do you have a CPL?
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Bede
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:18 pm 604 is for big airplanes (see the text for details). This usage is no different to buying a 210 yourself and registering it under your name. As long as there's no sniff of flying passengers or cargo for "reward" then it doesn't matter who flies in it, and any CPL can fly it and be paid to fly it.
What if those customers are construction clients that just want to go for a fun sightseeing flight? Let's even say my Boss is on board. They wouldn't pay for the flight, and any money they give the company would be for services unrelated to the flight.
I would say if they're giving money to a company and that company is flying them, then they're paying for the flight. The arrangements on paper are irrelevant. There's an outfitter that got dinged (upheld at the tribunal) for flying customers up to a lodge. It was only charging them for the lodge, and not the flight, but that was enough. But I'm not qualified to give you a decision you can rely on, you'd need a lawyer for that. All I know is that there is no mercy shown if you get hauled up in front of the beak.
It’s a fine line. If you build the flight into a price or “wink wink nudge nudge”, you’re in contravention of the CARS. If you take clients along, incidental to the flight, and there is no exchange of cash or other consideration you will likely be within the confines of the CARS.
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by cncpc »

Bede wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:35 am
photofly wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:18 pm 604 is for big airplanes (see the text for details). This usage is no different to buying a 210 yourself and registering it under your name. As long as there's no sniff of flying passengers or cargo for "reward" then it doesn't matter who flies in it, and any CPL can fly it and be paid to fly it.
What if those customers are construction clients that just want to go for a fun sightseeing flight? Let's even say my Boss is on board. They wouldn't pay for the flight, and any money they give the company would be for services unrelated to the flight.
I would say if they're giving money to a company and that company is flying them, then they're paying for the flight. The arrangements on paper are irrelevant. There's an outfitter that got dinged (upheld at the tribunal) for flying customers up to a lodge. It was only charging them for the lodge, and not the flight, but that was enough. But I'm not qualified to give you a decision you can rely on, you'd need a lawyer for that. All I know is that there is no mercy shown if you get hauled up in front of the beak.
It’s a fine line. If you build the flight into a price or “wink wink nudge nudge”, you’re in contravention of the CARS. If you take clients along, incidental to the flight, and there is no exchange of cash or other consideration you will likely be within the confines of the CARS.
Photofly advocates caution, which is correct. However, all fantastic scenarios aside, customers can fly in company aircraft so long as they aren't charged. That happens all the time.

The OP has stated some things in an unfortunate way. That bit starting "What if those customers are construction clients...etc," hints at some weasel work in the planning. It sounds like intending to skirt the regs, and making up weasel scenarios for no purpose. That isn't necessary. You can fly whoever you want so long as there is not an identifiable transaction that proves payment for the flight. Or some workaround attempt, like saying "Sure they paid us, but it wasn't for the airplane", if in fact it was. That is a chisel charter scheme older than the back of God's head.

This seems to be a private corporate operation in the very minimum of choices for a "corporate" aircraft. I've a fair bit of time in 210s, and its a great airplane for day VFR or moonlit nights on the flatlands. Don't even think of putting corporate clients in those two back seats. Not the impression you want to make.

Why a 210? If you've an ATPL, you must have a multi rating and an instrument rating. Seems if its a budget thing, but you want to get max utilization, i.e. IFR, night, in the mountains, a Seneca or a non pressurized Baron would move you towards the low end of "corporate" aircraft and keep you and your passengers alive with an important upgrade on safety in circumstances where a 210 would be risky.
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Dronepiper
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Dronepiper »

I have zero interest in skirting regs. This is why I am asking questions. Honestly it won't be a 210, I just did not want to reveal the actual type. Thanks everyone for answering my questions.
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Cessna 180 »

Don't overthink it. You'll operate under CAR 604, but with no requirement for a PORD. The same as every private Cessna at the airfield.

If you're taking clients up as an appreciation for their business? Sure that's fine. No different than taking them for a round of golf. As long as it's not expected and they're not directly paying for a ticket.

You have an ATPL, so theirs no question on whether you can be paid for the activity no matter your job title. If you only had a private, it would be a question on whether or not the flight is ancillary to your normal job duties. It's not an issue in this case.

Insurance should be like anyone else's Cessna that they use for recreation. Just let the broker know what you're using the plane for (in this case, business). Make sure you and whoever else flies it is named on the policy explicitly.

You can operate in VFR, Night VFR, OTT, IFR, RNAV, etc. You can't conduct RNP AR, RNAV Opsspec, RVSM, NAT, etc. (not that you will be with a 210 anyways). Anything any private Cessna can operate.

It only becomes complicated when you operate turbo-prop aircraft over 6 seats certified or any turbo-jet aircraft.
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The 210 will be operating under Subpart 602 period. Each subpart starts with a statement as to who and or what it applies to. It is clear that subpart 604 does not apply to a privately registered 210
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ahramin
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by ahramin »

Cessna 180 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:06 pm Don't overthink it. You'll operate under CAR 604, but with no requirement for a PORD. The same as every private Cessna at the airfield.
Did you mean operate under CAR Part VI? Most Cessnas cannot operate under 604.
604.02 This Subpart applies to the following Canadian aircraft:

(a) large aeroplanes;

(b) turbine-powered aircraft;

(c) pressurized aircraft; and

(d) multi-engined aircraft.
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by Cessna 180 »

ahramin wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:43 pm
Cessna 180 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:06 pm Don't overthink it. You'll operate under CAR 604, but with no requirement for a PORD. The same as every private Cessna at the airfield.
Did you mean operate under CAR Part VI? Most Cessnas cannot operate under 604.
604.02 This Subpart applies to the following Canadian aircraft:

(a) large aeroplanes;

(b) turbine-powered aircraft;

(c) pressurized aircraft; and

(d) multi-engined aircraft.
Yes sorry, you're correct. Same idea. Nothing special for this operation.
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Re: What Rules apply: Pilot for a small INC.?

Post by tsgarp »

goldeneagle wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:53 am
rigpiggy wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:06 am Yet Trudeau pays for the lowest economy class ticket for use of a challenger or A310.......anybody else see something wrong here?
When our national security folks wont let the prime minister travel on public transit, then unless you have a more constructive suggestion, why make a big issue out of it? It's really easy to bitch from the cheap seats when you dont have to provide a constructive alternative.
Make him pay the price of a 1st Class Ticket; That is, after all, the service that he is getting.
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