Take Off Alternate

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autocoarsen
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Take Off Alternate

Post by autocoarsen »

I'm struggling to find information on required take off alternate airports. As an example, weather at XXX airport is above take off minima but below landing minima. To legally depart, I need a take off alternate. Thinking long back to my training I believe that the airport has to be within 60 minutes at OEI speeds, but you are able to use LANDING minima as opposed to ALTERNATE minima while determining your take off alternate airport. Am I on the right track here? I can't seem to find anything in the AIM or CAPGEN. I am asking with the 703/4/5 world in mind.

Thanks in advance.
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Cessna 180
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Re: Take Off Alternate

Post by Cessna 180 »

You can use regular minimums i.e. 200 1/2m for an ILS. Distance is 60 minutes at OEI or ETOPS OEI if the aircraft is ETOPS certified.
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ahramin
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Re: Take Off Alternate

Post by ahramin »

The maximum distance depends on which of 703/704/705/604 you are operating under. The alternate minima are the easily found in the CAP GEN (same as for destination alternate).
703.30 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used unless

(a) the take-off is authorized in an air operator certificate; and

(b) the person complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(2) A person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used, if the weather conditions are at or above the landing minima for another suitable runway at that aerodrome.

(3) For the purposes of section 602.126, a person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are below the take-off minima specified in the instrument approach procedure, if the person

(a) is authorized to do so in an air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(4) For the purposes of this section, the landing minima are the decision height or the minimum descent altitude and the visibility published for an approach.
Take-off Minima
704.26 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used unless

(a) the take-off is authorized in an air operator certificate; and

(b) the person complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(2) A person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used, if the weather conditions are at or above the landing minima for another suitable runway at that aerodrome, taking into account the aircraft performance operating limitations specified in Division IV.

(3) For the purposes of section 602.126, a person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are below the take-off minima specified in the instrument approach procedure, if the person

(a) is authorized to do so in an air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(4) For the purposes of this section, the landing minima are the decision height or the minimum descent altitude and the visibility published for an approach.
Take-off Minima
705.34 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used unless an alternate aerodrome is specified in the operational flight plan and that aerodrome is located

(a) in the case of a twin-engined aircraft, within the distance that can be flown in 60 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative cruise speed; or

(b) in the case of a three- or four-engined aircraft or where an air operator is authorized in its air operator certificate to conduct ETOPS with the type of aircraft operated, within the distance that can be flown in 120 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative cruise speed.

(2) A person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used, if the weather conditions are at or above the landing minima for another suitable runway at that aerodrome, taking into account the aircraft performance operating limitations specified in Division IV.

(3) For the purposes of section 602.126, a person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are below the take-off minima specified in the instrument approach procedure, if the person

(a) is authorized to do so in an air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(4) For the purposes of this section, the landing minima are the decision height or the minimum descent altitude and the visibility published for an approach.
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autocoarsen
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Re: Take Off Alternate

Post by autocoarsen »

ahramin wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:05 pm
Take-off Minima
705.34 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used unless an alternate aerodrome is specified in the operational flight plan and that aerodrome is located

(a) in the case of a twin-engined aircraft, within the distance that can be flown in 60 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative cruise speed; or

(b) in the case of a three- or four-engined aircraft or where an air operator is authorized in its air operator certificate to conduct ETOPS with the type of aircraft operated, within the distance that can be flown in 120 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative cruise speed.

(2) A person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are at or above the take-off minima, but below the landing minima, for the runway to be used, if the weather conditions are at or above the landing minima for another suitable runway at that aerodrome, taking into account the aircraft performance operating limitations specified in Division IV.

(3) For the purposes of section 602.126, a person may conduct a take-off in an aircraft in IMC where weather conditions are below the take-off minima specified in the instrument approach procedure, if the person

(a) is authorized to do so in an air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(4) For the purposes of this section, the landing minima are the decision height or the minimum descent altitude and the visibility published for an approach.


Thanks for the answer and info. So if I'm interpreting this right, a take off alternate would be within that 60 minutes OEI, but you would use ALTERNATE minima to determing if that airport can be used, just like when you're choosing a destination alternate? Unless for some reason one runway at your departure airport had better cig/vis you can use to negate the "meet the take-off mins but not the landing mins", hence the part (4) of the paragraph?
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NotDirty!
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Re: Take Off Alternate

Post by NotDirty! »

723.30 Take-off Minima
(1) The standard for conducting a take-off in IMC when weather conditions are at or above take-off, but below landing minima for the runway in use are:
(amended 1999/09/01)

(a) the aeroplane is twin-engined or a single-engine aeroplane approved for operations under section 703.22 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations;
(amended 1998/06/01)
(b) an alternate aerodrome is specified in the IFR flight plan; and
(c) that aerodrome is located within the distance that can be flown in 60 minutes at the normal cruising speed.
724.26 Take-Off Minima
(1) Weather Below Landing Limits
The standards for conducting a take-off in IMC when weather conditions are above take-off, but below landing minima for the runway in use are:

(a) For departures where the operator has prevented more than 9 passenger seats from being occupied:
(i) an alternate aerodrome is specified in the IFR flight plan and that aerodrome is located:
(A) in the case of a twin-engined aircraft, within the distance that can be flown in 60 minutes at the normal cruising speed; or
(B) in the case of an aircraft with three or more engines, within the distance that can be flown in 120 minutes at the normal cruising speed; and
(b) For all other departures:
(i) an alternate aerodrome is specified in the IFR flight plan and that aerodrome is located:
(A) in the case of a twin-engined aircraft, within the distance that can be flown in 60 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative cruise speed, or
(B) in the case of an aircraft with three or more engines, within the distance that can be flown in 120 minutes at the one-engine-inoperative cruise speed.
These are the standards referred to in the 703.30 and 704.26 quoted above. Notice that for 703 and 704 with 9 or fewer seats, the distance is 60 minutes with all engines operating, whereas for 704 with more than 9 seats and for 705 it is based on OEI speed. In all cases it refers to an ALTERNATE aérodrome, so it must meet alternate minima. The only time that landing minima can be used is looking at other usable runways at your departure airport. For example, if the runway you are using for takeoff has no approaches to it, but there is another usable runway that has an approach, you do not need a takeoff alternate as long as the Wx is above landing minima for that other usable runway at your departure point.
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autocoarsen
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Re: Take Off Alternate

Post by autocoarsen »

NotDirty! wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:02 pm

These are the standards referred to in the 703.30 and 704.26 quoted above. Notice that for 703 and 704 with 9 or fewer seats, the distance is 60 minutes with all engines operating, whereas for 704 with more than 9 seats and for 705 it is based on OEI speed. In all cases it refers to an ALTERNATE aérodrome, so it must meet alternate minima. The only time that landing minima can be used is looking at other usable runways at your departure airport. For example, if the runway you are using for takeoff has no approaches to it, but there is another usable runway that has an approach, you do not need a takeoff alternate as long as the Wx is above landing minima for that other usable runway at your departure point.
Awesome, this clears it up. Thanks!
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co-joe
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Re: Take Off Alternate

Post by co-joe »

Also keep in mind that the TC test numbers are one thing, but the real numbers are specific to your company ops manual. I've come across a couple examples that differed slightly from the TC wording. Instead of a time you may have a specific distance.
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