Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

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CpnCrunch
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by CpnCrunch »

montado wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:16 pm Preparing for the worst doesn’t mean we have experienced the worst. I just asked my friend in Niagara who’s a nurse what it’s like right now. Last I heard staff were playing games all summer because it was dead.
Last I heard we're not in summer. I've no idea who you're actually arguing with. Cases were low during summer, and have only spiked recently. Here is a graph for Manitoba:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.5802812

Ontario:

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data
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flyguy73
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by flyguy73 »

ReserveTank wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:00 pm
flyguy73 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:09 am
ReserveTank wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:33 am

At least that's what you're being told, and that was the answer that you accepted without doubt.
People went out in the spring to film hospitals only to find them empty during the "COVID hospital bed shortage." Of course, MSM doesn't report that--It's a conspiracy theory. But it is on video. It's out there if you want to know.
Remember all of the bored nurses at hundreds of hospitals doing their Tik Tok dance routines?
You been to a hospital lately or are you too scared? I work in one every day and I've seen the amount of preparation necessary to manage this pandemic. As a hospital, it is our responsibility to be prepared for the worse. This means diverting resources to deal with a possible influx of patients. Joseph Brant Hospital in Burlington went so far as to build an entire building to house patients during the pandemic. Thankfully it wasn't used but do you think they can sit back and wait until they get overwhelmed? You think that they can reschedule brain surgeries on a whim when the COVID patients don't show up today? Do you think they should dismantle the temporary COVID wards or buildings because they went unused over the summer? If so, then maybe you should be in charge of your own hospital.

To even suggest this as a conspiracy theory is utterly ridiculous. But if you believe this, then OK. It really is disheartening to think that this attitude exists on a forum made up so by so many pilots and aviation workers who have lost their jobs due to this "conspiracy".
As a matter of fact, I have medical professionals in my immediate family and friends circle. It's a hoax, it's rubbish. We are seeing hospitals closing or reducing capacity for no reason. Remember the giant military hospital installation that received zero COVID patients so they packed it up and left? I have a friend in California that saw all of 2 genuine COVID patients since March. They were forced to work with reduced resources and increased overtime for months for no reason. Another one of my close friends works in a hospital in NY state. Zero cases and it was one of the "Tik Tok" hospitals.

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/85171231 ... 9-patients

You're using the scary but baseless language from the media:
  • "Preparation"
    "Possible influx"
    "Diverting resources"
That type of language and behaviour leads to this: The mayor of Dnipropetrovsk in Ukraine had 600 graves dug and 2000 body bags ordered for COVID patients in the spring. So scary. We're all going to die lol.

https://www.barrons.com/news/ukrainian- ... 1586254804

Sure, testing will drive the numbers. But in Africa, scientists tested fruit and livestock, which tested positive for COVID.

All in all, it's a cold and you know it. The world has forgotten about the flu, obesity, diabetes, and stroke. The fearmongering is tiresome and harmful to society.
Are you speaking as an educated scientist or medical professional saying this is a hoax or as a schmuck with no formal training saying this is a hoax. There is a big difference in credibility here. Let me know which one before I waste my time responding next time.

That type of language doesn't lead to over reaction. Not understanding the problem leads to over reaction. Understanding the problem means you plan for it accordingly. When that article was written (early April), Dnipropetrovsk had 0 deaths. They now have 560 deaths. Seems like good planning, no? Not sure what your point here was.

I wouldn't pin my hat to lab results from a lab in Tanzania (https://globalnews.ca/news/6910821/coro ... -tanzania/). No offense to them, but they probably have different standards then Canadian labs.

Colds don't kill 3% of people who get them. COVID-19 does. 300,000 confirmed cases in Canada. 10,000 dead. The flu kills less than 0.1%. It's not a cold and you know it. And if you don't know it by now, you haven't been following along.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Covid doesn’t kill 3%. Cancer deaths, heart attacks and choking deaths are being added to the covid death count. This I know for a fact. The numbers are skewed.
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Blowin' In The Wind
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by Blowin' In The Wind »

Regardless how things are being added up, there is significant consensus among researchers that the IFR of covid is in the 0.25-0.5% range. Still more dangerous than flu, definitely. But not 3%.
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flyguy73
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by flyguy73 »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:27 pm Covid doesn’t kill 3%. Cancer deaths, heart attacks and choking deaths are being added to the covid death count. This I know for a fact. The numbers are skewed.
Do tell how you came up with this fact, Dr. Pathologist. In many cases patients have pre-existing conditions, but if they didn't get COVID-19, they wouldn't have died. Very simple.

From your statement, it sounds like you think that a person living with cancer getting hit by a bus didn't die from the bus but from their cancer. Nonsense.
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flyguy73
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by flyguy73 »

Blowin' In The Wind wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:41 pm Regardless how things are being added up, there is significant consensus among researchers that the IFR of covid is in the 0.25-0.5% range. Still more dangerous than flu, definitely. But not 3%.
No doubt, 3% may be high. But even if it's 0.5%, at 1 million cases per year in Canada, that's 5,000 dead. And at the rate we are going, it will be over 1 million cases this year in Canada.

But, it's not about dying from COVID, it's about the 10% of cases that require hospitalization. This is what overwhelms the health care system. Dying is easy. They don't care if you get sick and die, so long as you do it at home and don't over stress the hospitals.

Hospitals in Canada have spent years trying go lean and not have excess capacity. Having 10% of COVID patients suddenly needing hospital care really would out a huge burden on the system. They beds simply aren't available without making sacrifices somewhere else.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

flyguy73 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:28 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:27 pm Covid doesn’t kill 3%. Cancer deaths, heart attacks and choking deaths are being added to the covid death count. This I know for a fact. The numbers are skewed.
Do tell how you came up with this fact, Dr. Pathologist. In many cases patients have pre-existing conditions, but if they didn't get COVID-19, they wouldn't have died. Very simple.

From your statement, it sounds like you think that a person living with cancer getting hit by a bus didn't die from the bus but from their cancer. Nonsense.
Covid didn’t cause the cancer that was so spread throughout the body that death was a certainty. But it was deemed covid death.
The choking victim didn’t choke on covid. But it was deemed a covid death (doctor fought that one but was overruled and is now banned from reporting cause of death).
The heart attack victim was also deemed a covid death and the doctor was overruled on that one too.

I know people who made appointments for a covid test and then didn’t show. They received a positive result. How do you explain that?

Public health put out a document locally a few months ago stating that EVEN WITH A NEGATIVE TEST RESULT, if the patient has any covid symptoms (including allergy symptoms) they are to be counted as a covid case.

These are not just stories these are things that I am privy to. Believe what you want but there is something here that doesn’t make sense.

And no need to throw insults if you don’t believe me. Try to keep it civil.
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

I don't feel I can have a rational discussion with someone like flyguy73 who nearly a year into this doesn't understand IFR. Maybe the reason there is so much ignorance around this is the media doesn't mention IFR. The Who estimates nearly a billion people in the world have now had covid. The actual covid cases is estimated to be 10 to 20 times the covid test counts. So just wrap your mind around these figures... Yes this means by now maybe 30 to 40 percent of Americans have had covid.

Herd immunity may not work... But wake up to the fact if herd immunity doesn't work, nor will a vaccine. A vaccine simply exposes you to the virus in a safe way for your body to develop antibodies. Yes covid is worse than influenza for our older population. I think most statistics actually show influenza is worse for younger generations from a mortality perspective.

So if you accept the above information as reasonable, rational, and what the experts are actually saying, now consider what you think is a reasonable and rational way to deal with covid. I find it unbelievable people still come out shouting 3 percent death rates. If it was a 3 percent death rate I would be bunkering down in my basement and 30 million people would have died from covid globally so far.
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flyguy73
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by flyguy73 »

montado wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:18 am I don't feel I can have a rational discussion with someone like flyguy73 who nearly a year into this doesn't understand IFR. Maybe the reason there is so much ignorance around this is the media doesn't mention IFR. The Who estimates nearly a billion people in the world have now had covid. The actual covid cases is estimated to be 10 to 20 times the covid test counts. So just wrap your mind around these figures... Yes this means by now maybe 30 to 40 percent of Americans have had covid.

Herd immunity may not work... But wake up to the fact if herd immunity doesn't work, nor will a vaccine. A vaccine simply exposes you to the virus in a safe way for your body to develop antibodies. Yes covid is worse than influenza for our older population. I think most statistics actually show influenza is worse for younger generations from a mortality perspective.

So if you accept the above information as reasonable, rational, and what the experts are actually saying, now consider what you think is a reasonable and rational way to deal with covid. I find it unbelievable people still come out shouting 3 percent death rates. If it was a 3 percent death rate I would be bunkering down in my basement and 30 million people would have died from covid globally so far.
In fact, I understand infection fatality rate just fine thank you. The fact that this disease mainly kills higher aged people or immunocompromised individuals does not take away from the fact that it kills MUCH more people than influenza. That's a fact. Canadian Blood Services did antibody testing over 6 weeks in May - June. Less than 1% had antibodies. So the 1 billion figure you cite doesn't match with CBS results.

I actually had COVID back in late January (confirmed, don't ask me how I know, long story), before it was considered community spread in Canada. I was lucky in that I didn't have trouble breathing or any other issues. It was over in 3 days. Not everyone is so lucky though and I wouldn't want to have passed it on to those less likely to fight it off like my 74 year old mother. So I happily wear a mask and physical distance whenever I can in order to do my part to get this over as soon as possible and to get those pilots, among others, out of jobs back to work as quickly as possible. I would advise anyone else who cares about the economy and your profession, to do the same and quit arguing about it already.
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flyguy73
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by flyguy73 »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:44 am
flyguy73 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:28 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:27 pm Covid doesn’t kill 3%. Cancer deaths, heart attacks and choking deaths are being added to the covid death count. This I know for a fact. The numbers are skewed.
Do tell how you came up with this fact, Dr. Pathologist. In many cases patients have pre-existing conditions, but if they didn't get COVID-19, they wouldn't have died. Very simple.

From your statement, it sounds like you think that a person living with cancer getting hit by a bus didn't die from the bus but from their cancer. Nonsense.
Covid didn’t cause the cancer that was so spread throughout the body that death was a certainty. But it was deemed covid death.
The choking victim didn’t choke on covid. But it was deemed a covid death (doctor fought that one but was overruled and is now banned from reporting cause of death).
The heart attack victim was also deemed a covid death and the doctor was overruled on that one too.

I know people who made appointments for a covid test and then didn’t show. They received a positive result. How do you explain that?

Public health put out a document locally a few months ago stating that EVEN WITH A NEGATIVE TEST RESULT, if the patient has any covid symptoms (including allergy symptoms) they are to be counted as a covid case.

These are not just stories these are things that I am privy to. Believe what you want but there is something here that doesn’t make sense.

And no need to throw insults if you don’t believe me. Try to keep it civil.
Unfortunately, three anecdotal experiences among the hundreds of thousands of legitimate COVID deaths doesn't make the argument about COVID not being real or a legitimate threat to humans. If COVID isn't real, then what's the play here? I seriously don't get how the world spending trillions of dollars on COVID response and it's just a joke. Really? Countless scientists have independently verified the virus exists and causes the harm that is described. Yet, we are supposed to believe that a small minority of non experts knows the truth that COVID isn't real?

I also don't understand the reason why you think COVID numbers are artificially increased. Nobody is getting additional funding because of higher COVID numbers. Hospitals can't do lucrative elective surgeries because they are shut down. So it's not the healthcare system making money off this. So who is? Maybe Amazon?
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

flyguy73, May I ask if you understand IFR, why is it you come on here and say the fatality rate is 3 percent? I don't know your motivation to blatantly lie about things you claim to understand. So now I am even more confused as to why you are not ignorant, but you are just a flat out liar. Certainly running around saying covid kills 3 percent of those who get it is not they type of lie I would tell if I wanted the economy to pick up and for people to fly again.

Oh and here is some not anecdotal tweet by Toronto public health. Say what you want about Covid, but the leadership during the pandemic has been atrocious. Can you blame anyone for questioning every government decision when Government and Public Health blatantly admit to idiotic policy.

https://twitter.com/topublichealth/stat ... 67?lang=en

"Individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not as a result of COVID-19 are included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto."
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flyguy73
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by flyguy73 »

montado wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:36 am flyguy73, May I ask if you understand IFR, why is it you come on here and say the fatality rate is 3 percent? I don't know your motivation to blatantly lie about things you claim to understand. So now I am even more confused as to why you are not ignorant, but you are just a flat out liar. Certainly running around saying covid kills 3 percent of those who get it is not they type of lie I would tell if I wanted the economy to pick up and for people to fly again.

Oh and here is some not anecdotal tweet by Toronto public health. Say what you want about Covid, but the leadership during the pandemic has been atrocious. Can you blame anyone for questioning every government decision when Government and Public Health blatantly admit to idiotic policy.

https://twitter.com/topublichealth/stat ... 67?lang=en

"Individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not as a result of COVID-19 are included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto."
Oiy. Just because I'm presenting data that runs counter to your argument doesn't make me a liar. I'm just presenting the same information available to everyone. And yes, TPH may lump all people who died with COVID together as it becomes a co-morbidity. Not saying this is justified, not saying it isn't. I'm not an epidemiologist.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

World-wide: 55M cases, 1.3M deaths. That's nearly 3%. Please present contrasting data from a reputable source that says otherwise. This source is about as scientific as is possible. If you have other information, please present it.

I understand that different populations will have different death rates and that the true infection rate is likely higher than that presented here. But probably not by a factor or 20 like you propose. This probably makes the true IFR closer to 0.5-1% across the board. But this is still at least 10 times more deadly than the flu and MUCH more virulent. Catching COVID is much easier than catching the flu. Nearly 5000 people a day are not catching influenza in Canada, but they are getting COVID. This is why governments have imposed lockdowns. It IS serious. Why do you choose to not believe the facts?

Honestly, I think I'm done with this argument. I'm evaluating reputable evidence to come to my conclusions. I am willing to admit that I am not a virologist or epidemiologist and don't have expertise in these fields. But I am a Medical Scientist with a PhD and do understand a few things about critical thinking. I know the amount of work that I put into my field and trust my knowledge. I apply the same level of trust to other professional Scientists who have put their lives into understanding issues such as COVID. I base my opinion on their knowledge.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by 2R »

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba ... -1.5803299

Hospitals getting near full in Manitoba according to CBC.
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montado
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by montado »

flyguy73 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:06 am
montado wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:36 am flyguy73, May I ask if you understand IFR, why is it you come on here and say the fatality rate is 3 percent? I don't know your motivation to blatantly lie about things you claim to understand. So now I am even more confused as to why you are not ignorant, but you are just a flat out liar. Certainly running around saying covid kills 3 percent of those who get it is not they type of lie I would tell if I wanted the economy to pick up and for people to fly again.

Oh and here is some not anecdotal tweet by Toronto public health. Say what you want about Covid, but the leadership during the pandemic has been atrocious. Can you blame anyone for questioning every government decision when Government and Public Health blatantly admit to idiotic policy.

https://twitter.com/topublichealth/stat ... 67?lang=en

"Individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not as a result of COVID-19 are included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto."
Oiy. Just because I'm presenting data that runs counter to your argument doesn't make me a liar. I'm just presenting the same information available to everyone. And yes, TPH may lump all people who died with COVID together as it becomes a co-morbidity. Not saying this is justified, not saying it isn't. I'm not an epidemiologist.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

World-wide: 55M cases, 1.3M deaths. That's nearly 3%. Please present contrasting data from a reputable source that says otherwise. This source is about as scientific as is possible. If you have other information, please present it.

I understand that different populations will have different death rates and that the true infection rate is likely higher than that presented here. But probably not by a factor or 20 like you propose. This probably makes the true IFR closer to 0.5-1% across the board. But this is still at least 10 times more deadly than the flu and MUCH more virulent. Catching COVID is much easier than catching the flu. Nearly 5000 people a day are not catching influenza in Canada, but they are getting COVID. This is why governments have imposed lockdowns. It IS serious. Why do you choose to not believe the facts?

Honestly, I think I'm done with this argument. I'm evaluating reputable evidence to come to my conclusions. I am willing to admit that I am not a virologist or epidemiologist and don't have expertise in these fields. But I am a Medical Scientist with a PhD and do understand a few things about critical thinking. I know the amount of work that I put into my field and trust my knowledge. I apply the same level of trust to other professional Scientists who have put their lives into understanding issues such as COVID. I base my opinion on their knowledge.
Nah you just don't want to argue in good faith. By your method of argument, if we just stopped testing for covid cases except for those people who die, then you would argue covid has a 100% death rate.

And here from Dr. Michael Ryan of the WHO

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/05/who-10p ... irus-.html

"The head of emergencies at the World Health Organization said Monday its “best estimates” indicate that roughly 1 in 10 people worldwide may have been infected by the coronavirus — more than 20 times the number of confirmed cases — and warned of a difficult period ahead."

So you go against this experts... and this statement is over a month old, so if it was 10 percent then what is it now?

flyguy73-"But this is still at least 10 times more deadly than the flu and MUCH more virulent" Can you do math? Because the IFR for influenza is 0.1, and you put the estimate at 0.5-1.0 for covid...

But this is still up to 10 times more deadly than the flu. FTFY

For someone with a PhD, you sure could pass for a drama major. If you were into critical thinking you would not be adding so much salt to your facts. Its clear your goal is to bend the facts as much as possible without being a straight up bullshitter. Pretty much inline with the medias methodology of reporting. I would think when it comes to a pandemic we should be as objective as possible. You, our governments, and Public Health don't seem to demonstrate that ability for whatever reasons.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by CpnCrunch »

montado wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:39 am For someone with a PhD, you sure could pass for a drama major. If you were into critical thinking you would not be adding so much salt to your facts. Its clear your goal is to bend the facts as much as possible without being a straight up bullshitter. Pretty much inline with the medias methodology of reporting. I would think when it comes to a pandemic we should be as objective as possible. You, our governments, and Public Health don't seem to demonstrate that ability for whatever reasons.
If you look at COVID deaths in the USA, it is 253000. That is for 8 months, and with some social distancing. Compare to 34000 deaths during a normal flu season. So, COVID is killing a lot more people than the flu. That is partly due to the fact we have a flu vaccine. But still: the point remains that it's killing a lot more people. You can argue all day about the fatality rate, but it is somewhat irrelevant to our discussion. The main point is that hospitals are reaching capacity and it's killing a lot of people than the flu normally does. Those are undeniable facts.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

I don’t recall saying covid is not real, only that the numbers are not accurate.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

flyguy73 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:51 pm
ReserveTank wrote:
flyguy73 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:09 am

You been to a hospital lately or are you too scared? I work in one every day and I've seen the amount of preparation necessary to manage this pandemic. As a hospital, it is our responsibility to be prepared for the worse. This means diverting resources to deal with a possible influx of patients. Joseph Brant Hospital in Burlington went so far as to build an entire building to house patients during the pandemic. Thankfully it wasn't used but do you think they can sit back and wait until they get overwhelmed? You think that they can reschedule brain surgeries on a whim when the COVID patients don't show up today? Do you think they should dismantle the temporary COVID wards or buildings because they went unused over the summer? If so, then maybe you should be in charge of your own hospital.

To even suggest this as a conspiracy theory is utterly ridiculous. But if you believe this, then OK. It really is disheartening to think that this attitude exists on a forum made up so by so many pilots and aviation workers who have lost their jobs due to this "conspiracy".
As a matter of fact, I have medical professionals in my immediate family and friends circle. It's a hoax, it's rubbish. We are seeing hospitals closing or reducing capacity for no reason. Remember the giant military hospital installation that received zero COVID patients so they packed it up and left? I have a friend in California that saw all of 2 genuine COVID patients since March. They were forced to work with reduced resources and increased overtime for months for no reason. Another one of my close friends works in a hospital in NY state. Zero cases and it was one of the "Tik Tok" hospitals.

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/85171231 ... 9-patients

You're using the scary but baseless language from the media:
  • "Preparation"
    "Possible influx"
    "Diverting resources"
That type of language and behaviour leads to this: The mayor of Dnipropetrovsk in Ukraine had 600 graves dug and 2000 body bags ordered for COVID patients in the spring. So scary. We're all going to die lol.

https://www.barrons.com/news/ukrainian- ... 1586254804

Sure, testing will drive the numbers. But in Africa, scientists tested fruit and livestock, which tested positive for COVID.

All in all, it's a cold and you know it. The world has forgotten about the flu, obesity, diabetes, and stroke. The fearmongering is tiresome and harmful to society.
Are you speaking as an educated scientist or medical professional saying this is a hoax or as a schmuck with no formal training saying this is a hoax. There is a big difference in credibility here. Let me know which one before I waste my time responding next time.

That type of language doesn't lead to over reaction. Not understanding the problem leads to over reaction. Understanding the problem means you plan for it accordingly. When that article was written (early April), Dnipropetrovsk had 0 deaths. They now have 560 deaths. Seems like good planning, no? Not sure what your point here was.

I wouldn't pin my hat to lab results from a lab in Tanzania (https://globalnews.ca/news/6910821/coro ... -tanzania/). No offense to them, but they probably have different standards then Canadian labs.

Colds don't kill 3% of people who get them. COVID-19 does. 300,000 confirmed cases in Canada. 10,000 dead. The flu kills less than 0.1%. It's not a cold and you know it. And if you don't know it by now, you haven't been following along.
3% Mortality Rate :lol:

I dont know where people come up with this shit.

CDC:

0-19 years: 0.00003
20-49 years: 0.0002
50-69 years: 0.005
70+ years: 0.054

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... arios.html
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by mixturerich »

The Danish “Danmask-20” study is out now. As we suspected, masks do not protect the wearer very much.

https://www.rt.com/news/507157-danish-s ... mask-sudy/

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

“However, there are several caveats.

The study did not test the role of masks in source control (the transmission from an infected person to others), but instead examined the degree of protection mask wearers can expect when combined with other public health measures.

The evidence within the Damask-19 study excludes a large personal protective effect of mask wearing but cannot definitely exclude ‘no effect’. In other words, masks alone cannot stop the spread of the coronavirus, but the study stops short of proving they are completely ineffective.

Masks, when worn by all, may reduce transmission by both source control and personal protection but mask wearing alone offers less risk reduction.”


I can see why many people doubt masks but for now it’s not a big deal to wear one if the community asks. I certainly wouldn’t make fun of somebody for it either. Kinda like SOP’s...don’t be that wiener that always whines about having to follow them. We’ll all get to show our pretty faces again one day.
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by mbav8r »

montado wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:39 am
flyguy73 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:06 am
montado wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:36 am flyguy73, May I ask if you understand IFR, why is it you come on here and say the fatality rate is 3 percent? I don't know your motivation to blatantly lie about things you claim to understand. So now I am even more confused as to why you are not ignorant, but you are just a flat out liar. Certainly running around saying covid kills 3 percent of those who get it is not they type of lie I would tell if I wanted the economy to pick up and for people to fly again.

Oh and here is some not anecdotal tweet by Toronto public health. Say what you want about Covid, but the leadership during the pandemic has been atrocious. Can you blame anyone for questioning every government decision when Government and Public Health blatantly admit to idiotic policy.

https://twitter.com/topublichealth/stat ... 67?lang=en

"Individuals who have died with COVID-19, but not as a result of COVID-19 are included in the case counts for COVID-19 deaths in Toronto."
Oiy. Just because I'm presenting data that runs counter to your argument doesn't make me a liar. I'm just presenting the same information available to everyone. And yes, TPH may lump all people who died with COVID together as it becomes a co-morbidity. Not saying this is justified, not saying it isn't. I'm not an epidemiologist.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

World-wide: 55M cases, 1.3M deaths. That's nearly 3%. Please present contrasting data from a reputable source that says otherwise. This source is about as scientific as is possible. If you have other information, please present it.

I understand that different populations will have different death rates and that the true infection rate is likely higher than that presented here. But probably not by a factor or 20 like you propose. This probably makes the true IFR closer to 0.5-1% across the board. But this is still at least 10 times more deadly than the flu and MUCH more virulent. Catching COVID is much easier than catching the flu. Nearly 5000 people a day are not catching influenza in Canada, but they are getting COVID. This is why governments have imposed lockdowns. It IS serious. Why do you choose to not believe the facts?

Honestly, I think I'm done with this argument. I'm evaluating reputable evidence to come to my conclusions. I am willing to admit that I am not a virologist or epidemiologist and don't have expertise in these fields. But I am a Medical Scientist with a PhD and do understand a few things about critical thinking. I know the amount of work that I put into my field and trust my knowledge. I apply the same level of trust to other professional Scientists who have put their lives into understanding issues such as COVID. I base my opinion on their knowledge.
Nah you just don't want to argue in good faith. By your method of argument, if we just stopped testing for covid cases except for those people who die, then you would argue covid has a 100% death rate.

And here from Dr. Michael Ryan of the WHO

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/05/who-10p ... irus-.html

"The head of emergencies at the World Health Organization said Monday its “best estimates” indicate that roughly 1 in 10 people worldwide may have been infected by the coronavirus — more than 20 times the number of confirmed cases — and warned of a difficult period ahead."

So you go against this experts... and this statement is over a month old, so if it was 10 percent then what is it now?

flyguy73-"But this is still at least 10 times more deadly than the flu and MUCH more virulent" Can you do math? Because the IFR for influenza is 0.1, and you put the estimate at 0.5-1.0 for covid...

But this is still up to 10 times more deadly than the flu. FTFY

For someone with a PhD, you sure could pass for a drama major. If you were into critical thinking you would not be adding so much salt to your facts. Its clear your goal is to bend the facts as much as possible without being a straight up bullshitter. Pretty much inline with the medias methodology of reporting. I would think when it comes to a pandemic we should be as objective as possible. You, our governments, and Public Health don't seem to demonstrate that ability for whatever reasons.
So, what’s your point? How many flu cases go unreported? If you have the flu and don’t need hospitalization you’re not counted either. The only numbers we know FOR SURE are the confirmed cases, even the CDC statement says it’s a GUESS, far more people have died this year from COVID than worst case years of the flu and we don’t lockdown for the flu, what part of the equation are you not getting? These numbers are with some form a preventative measures, some extreme and some “recommendations” or mild public health orders not really enforced. Responsible and reasonable people see this!
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

Post by CpnCrunch »

mixturerich wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:22 pm The Danish “Danmask-20” study is out now. As we suspected, masks do not protect the wearer very much.

No, it didn't actually show that. In fact, the study was too small to show any useful results. "Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection".
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