Landing fee at CYOS

[rookiepilot]

There used to be an airport restaurant: several different operators have tried to make a go of it, and every one has failed, so far.

There you go. Telling.

Yes. And what it tells me is that the municipality should be concerned to make the airport more attractive to visitors, not less.

They "should". Who is "they?

Why don't you offer to go up and help. Volunteer, Photofly. It'd do you good.

I've done a ton of volunteer work.

[rookiepilot]

The library comparison is just ridiculous.

I thought it was fair. I fall into the same category, don't use many of the local services my taxes pay for but should we consider cutting them? I think not.

No, it isn't.

One primarily serves a small group of rich airplane owners. Medivacs aren't even needed in Owen sound, there are 2 other nearby airports, and orange uses choppers in the south, anyway.

One serves an entire community using the library as an educational resource for everyone, and especially every child, in the community.

Give your heads a shake, all.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

[digits_]

One primarily serves a small group of rich airplane owners.

I should inform my bank I'm rich. And my wife.

There is a big spectrum of wealth between being poor and being rich. A lot of people earn more than me, but have other priorities for their money, as is their right. Owning an airplane doesn't make you rich, and reinforcing that stereotype doesn't do aviation any good. It would be one thing if it were true, but it isn't.

Medivacs aren't even needed in Owen sound, there are 2 other nearby airports, and orange uses choppers in the south, anyway.

Ah, I see. They don't need an airport, because there are other airports. Right.

Reminds me of some of my ex colleagues who were proud they didn't own a car because cars are evil and unnecessary. But if they really needed it, their friends gave them rides. In their evil cars.

[photofly]

Ornge helicopters fly into CYOS a lot, fuelling from Owen Sound Hospital helipad, I think. Or else just waiting there for their next transfer.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

I don't think you do, actually. I confess it is disappointing to hear a fellow pilot clamouring to shut down an airport.

[rookiepilot]

Owning an airplane doesn't make you rich, and reinforcing that stereotype doesn't do aviation any good. It would be one thing if it were true, but it isn't.

Dude, I'm not in anyone's echo chamber. Or cheerleading squad.

Looking for that, look elsewhere. Or anywhere, since critical thinking is a lost art.

If you own an airplane and think you're poor, you probably don't have a clue about what poor means.

[rookiepilot]

Ornge helicopters fly into CYOS a lot, fuelling from Owen Sound Hospital helipad, I think. Or else just waiting there for their next transfer.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

I don't think you do, actually. I confess it is disappointing to hear a fellow pilot clamouring to shut down an airport.

Oh, I'm not clamouring to shut anything down. Don't put words in my mouth.


But -- Is this site only a COPA lobbying arm?

Sorry. I don't do that. See last post.

Airports are great but the library comparison.... is ridiculous.

If the airport was in Northern Ontario, where airports are few and far apart, the discussion on what's essential changes, for medevac reasons.

[photofly]

Ornge helicopters fly into CYOS a lot, fuelling from Owen Sound Hospital helipad, I think. Or else just waiting there for their next transfer.

I'm a pilot and business guy, but I get what's essential and sustainable, and what isn't.

I don't think you do, actually. I confess it is disappointing to hear a fellow pilot clamouring to shut down an airport.

Is this site only a COPA lobbying arm?

Sorry. I don't do that. See last post.

Airports are great but the library comparison is ridiculous.

This sounds a lot like the Bombardier threads. Look how that turned out.

If the airport was in Northern Ontario, where airports are few and far apart, the discussion on what's essential changes, for medevac reasons.

I really don't think the "hard business ass pilot" shtick suits you.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

If the airport was in Northern Ontario, where airports are few and far apart, the discussion on what's essential changes, for medevac reasons.

I really don't think the "hard business ass pilot" shtick suits you.

Rookie does have a valid point.

[anofly]

anyone want a history lesson about how we got to where we are in general wrt "regional or smaller airports?" in Ontario ?

In the good old 1970's, and early 80s' almost all the towns that you know that now have 3500-4000 foot paved runways had grass, or if they were busy dirt!! strips.. the grass was worn off the busy ones!!!

There was a policy in Ontario govt to make a regional and municipal airport system .

Many of these grass strips had small flight schools and or flying clubs

Govt money, provincial and federal, came along to pay appx 80% of the paved runway portion of an upgrade. Note runway only.
Ramps etc were local responsibility.

many airports were built under this program. YOS YHS YKM YCC , ND4,Nk4, and on and on.

Shortly after completing these runways there was another program , if the airports built a terminal and hired a full time manager, the prov govt would pay 80% of any shortage in operating money, if the airport "lost money", of course they all got terminals and managers...

Just like many provincial hiways the provincial govt eventually dropped the cash infusions to help keep airports afloat.
The feds have also downloaded a bunch of "regional or secondary airports" to municipalities that are having a hard time keeping them afloat.
so now instead of what were often quite busy grass strips, with a flight school, an active volunteer base, and with no "manager" per se and no terminals,
we have sometimes rather sleepy airports with empty terminals, paid managers and no active volunteer base.
What we are all fighting about now is who is going to pay, and how much.

user pay is an easy sell for a municipal council, but the only way user pay works is if everything is user pay, not just a few selected things.
my time on the ice rink , ball diamonds, and sending kids to public schools is over, but I am sure I am still paying for them. I am not at the library much.
Sadly my time in the municipal park sitting on the benches, and walking the sidewalks regularly is coming....and maybe the boat launch LOL
In the meantime I will be using the airports...

[rookiepilot]

GA is shrinking, too, for many, many years. That's reality.

Blame whatever floats your boat for that trend.

Small, not busy airports are going the way of small, not busy enough businesses.

It's very sad, actually. There isn't enough money for everything.

Inflation in many, many products and services is vastly understated, pushing people out of these activities as costs go higher and higher.

[Heavy Rayn]

I was born in Owen Sound. Took my first ever flight at CYOS. Upon completing my PPL with a university program my first CPL time building flight was to CYOS. When I heard they were implementing fees of this size I was disheartened knowing what would likely happen to the airport. There are tons of good people here, especially those at the school (OSFS). It would be awful to see them forced out (maybe to YVV?) due to an incomprehensible decision by city council.

YOS is simply not worth 2x the landing fees at YTZ. It’s an unjustifiable decision. I look forward to speaking with the city councillors I am friends with to discuss this idea and inform them of the flawed issues within it.

On a side note, I really would like to see the airport stay open and $0 landing fees but the library comparison makes no sense. Over 99% of the population can read, and therefore is able to use a library if they so choose, less than 1% of people know how to fly, much less own a plane. This isn’t the answer to building additional revenue streams at the airport.

[Squaretail]

Landing fees are a silly way for an underused airport to raise revenue, because they are a reverse incentive - they discourage landings. They make some sense for a congested airport, but CYOS isn't that.

The obvious part that most small airports miss, is that the airport needs to have enough traffic to offset the cost of collecting the fee, never mind the fact that so many places do it so poorly, all they do is piss people off. Stamps, paper, someone to administer, the surveillance all costs money. One place I knew of was spending 50k per year to a “management group” to get less than 15k revenue from their airport from landing and parking fees.

The main problem I have found with most small airports, is what BPF alluded to, in that communities treat them as cash cows, yet despise re investing in them. Hangars at the airport are all paying property taxes, tax is being levied on fuel, and businesses are paying their associated taxes, but then demand the airport be self funding.

At the end of it, airports need a louder voice in local politics, and like in the U.S., you should be able to find out who in your government is aviation friendly from federal down to municipal. Airports need better PR, so people know how vital they are to local communities. A little while back I stopped at a coffee shop I used to frequent when I was based at a different airfield which is in the long process of closing. The lady who run the place remarked how business dropped off when the airport was shut down. Go figure. Too late to support the airport now.

[photofly]

What you say about property taxes is interesting. I know the Owen Sound Airport isn’t actually in the Owen Sound municipality: it’s in neighbouring Meaford, so I wonder who gets the property taxes then?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

What you say about property taxes is interesting. I know the Owen Sound Airport isn’t actually in the Owen Sound municipality: it’s in neighbouring Meaford, so I wonder who gets the property taxes then?

Interesting point - Mississauga and Peel have the same beef with YYZ - the GTAA isn't paying their fair share, and the airport is in Mississauga and Peel Region, not Toronto. They don't pay their stormwater bill, either, at least not last time I looked into it.

[rookiepilot]

On a side note, I really would like to see the airport stay open and $0 landing fees but the library comparison makes no sense. Over 99% of the population can read, and therefore is able to use a library if they so choose, less than 1% of people know how to fly, much less own a plane. This isn’t the answer to building additional revenue streams at the airport.

Exactly.

If poster's used this comparison with city council they'd be laughed out of the building.

[redlaser]

Most pilots won't pay the fee and the city will have to hire a person to record the landing aircraft and also collect the fee, I'm sure the flight school operator won't want to get involved in fee collection at the airport, Also the airport is isolate, There was a good restaurant there at one time but now it's closed.

[Squaretail]

On a side note, I really would like to see the airport stay open and $0 landing fees but the library comparison makes no sense. Over 99% of the population can read, and therefore is able to use a library if they so choose, less than 1% of people know how to fly, much less own a plane. This isn’t the answer to building additional revenue streams at the airport.

Exactly.

If poster's used this comparison with city council they'd be laughed out of the building.

A more apt comparison would be that a runway, and the rest of the airport’s infrastructure is like any other piece of roadway, park or greenspace in a town or community. Just because you don’t own a car, doesn’t mean you don’t benefit from road maintenance. Maybe more importantly to many people is an airport should be considered part of a community’s emergency resources. Medevac services aren’t just for remote communities. Never mind that airports are ready made disaster staging areas.

Never mind the effect on local businesses. Closing an airport, or reducing its traffic, is like them closing a road that leads to your store. Increasing fees at your nearby airport, is like putting a toll on the road that goes by your business.

But on the flip side of things, I’m also keenly aware on how poorly many airports are managed. So many I see spend money on ludicrous equipment they don’t need, and my God if I see another consultant hired by a local board that didn’t cost them more than they will take in revenue for a year. Twits at home hired a consultant who they were pumped about since he worked for the Calgary Airport Authority. Needless to say big airport solutions don’t work at smaller scale. Management councils that have an adversarial relationship to the on field businesses as opposed to collaborative ones are all too common. The sentiment that aerodromes are playgrounds for the rich often comes right out of the group that run the place is also common. Some guys you get the feeling that if they could, they’d have the only key for the only gate for the place. And don’t get me started on how often I have seen shyster land developers get on these boards with interests counter to the airport’s.

At the end of it, the problem comes from both sides. The non flying public don’t want to fund airports because they are blind to what they provide. The guys who want airport are only too happy to keep up that perception either ignorantly, apathetically or willfully.

[anofly]

I respectfully wish I had never said library.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I respectfully wish I had never said library.

I dunno, I think photofly's reference to this library was quite apt.

[BigBeautifulRadials]

Here's a petition to show support against the new landing fee for the Owen Sound airport arranged by the local school and hangar owners, Show your support!
http://chng.it/hS4CPFKPSr