Ok I heard that the Cargo contracts such as the ones Navair and RXX had are 1 month contracts!!!! If this is True WTF is up with this, why such a short period? I cant imagin Medivac or anyother contract for that matter being so short. This is one of the reasons these airlines pay shit and go under all the time. I guess thats why there undercutting each other all the time.
Why dont these airlines get togather through BCAC and dictate to the banks and cargo operators the lenght of these contracts and let the best bid prevail, and bring a little stability to the industry.
Cargo Contracts
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ScudRunner
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The contracts are usually 30 day 'performance guaranteed' renewable agreements that are awarded for 2-5 yrs. A whole new bid doesn't actually come out every 30 days that is open to any airline to compete for.
Once a contract is awarded (for the 2-5 yr period), the winning airline is under pressure to perform, or it can be revoked within 30 days. Sounds fairly benign right? After all why shouldn't an airline operate on time, and carry the amount they specified that they could carry, when that is essentially all that is asked of it by the courier?
Well, airlines are their own worst enemy during the bidding process. Knowing that the work is truly going to go to the lowest bidder, any advantage that one company can guarantee over another is sure to tip the scale in their favour. Tricks like
-guaranteeing payloads based on min fuel and no copilot
-building the block times based on the max cruising speed of the aircraft on direct routing only
-no fudge factor for bad weather, vectoring, approaches, traffic delays
-no deicing or downplaying the real cost by using brooms, garden sprayers etc. Or specifying that the aircraft will be hangared in winter when really they won't be
-no pilot salaries
-pilots pay for their own training
-shared crew hotel rooms, if any at all
-no per diem
-no health benefits or dental
As we've seen in the past, there is basically no limit to how cheap an airline can be. You can picture how one day way back when, a courier awarded work to company A with entirely reasonable conditions. By the time that contract was up, company B had started up and was hungry for business so they put in a bid saying their aircraft (even though they were the exact same type) flew faster, more cheaply, and carried more (how does a courier company know the difference? They just see a lower bid and smile). Each time the conditions were eroded just a little bit more, until we got to where we are today. With company Z. Costs are cut to the bone, the pressure is on management to have the pilots wring every last ounce of performance out of old aircraft. And the entire operation runs with its collective fingers crossed because if one thing, just one tiny thing goes wrong then the entire house of cards crumbles.
It is not possible to compete on service in cargo, because "service" in the courier business means arriving on time for the lowest cost possible. Do you really give a flying $%! how your package gets to where it gets? Or do you just want it to get there on time, cheaply? It was easy for us to all sit here and say, "my family won't fly on Jetsgo because its not safe" and whatnot. Lots of people were. But is there anybody anywhere saying, "my christmas presents won't fly on DHL", or "my cancelled cheques won't get sent by BDC?". Nope. And yet here we are.
Once a contract is awarded (for the 2-5 yr period), the winning airline is under pressure to perform, or it can be revoked within 30 days. Sounds fairly benign right? After all why shouldn't an airline operate on time, and carry the amount they specified that they could carry, when that is essentially all that is asked of it by the courier?
Well, airlines are their own worst enemy during the bidding process. Knowing that the work is truly going to go to the lowest bidder, any advantage that one company can guarantee over another is sure to tip the scale in their favour. Tricks like
-guaranteeing payloads based on min fuel and no copilot
-building the block times based on the max cruising speed of the aircraft on direct routing only
-no fudge factor for bad weather, vectoring, approaches, traffic delays
-no deicing or downplaying the real cost by using brooms, garden sprayers etc. Or specifying that the aircraft will be hangared in winter when really they won't be
-no pilot salaries
-pilots pay for their own training
-shared crew hotel rooms, if any at all
-no per diem
-no health benefits or dental
As we've seen in the past, there is basically no limit to how cheap an airline can be. You can picture how one day way back when, a courier awarded work to company A with entirely reasonable conditions. By the time that contract was up, company B had started up and was hungry for business so they put in a bid saying their aircraft (even though they were the exact same type) flew faster, more cheaply, and carried more (how does a courier company know the difference? They just see a lower bid and smile). Each time the conditions were eroded just a little bit more, until we got to where we are today. With company Z. Costs are cut to the bone, the pressure is on management to have the pilots wring every last ounce of performance out of old aircraft. And the entire operation runs with its collective fingers crossed because if one thing, just one tiny thing goes wrong then the entire house of cards crumbles.
It is not possible to compete on service in cargo, because "service" in the courier business means arriving on time for the lowest cost possible. Do you really give a flying $%! how your package gets to where it gets? Or do you just want it to get there on time, cheaply? It was easy for us to all sit here and say, "my family won't fly on Jetsgo because its not safe" and whatnot. Lots of people were. But is there anybody anywhere saying, "my christmas presents won't fly on DHL", or "my cancelled cheques won't get sent by BDC?". Nope. And yet here we are.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Today I spoke to the journalist who is asking for information about airplane safety in the other thread, we spoke for some time on the phone.
After some time on the phone answering questions my suggestion was to have an in depth look at the most risky and dangerous job in aviation ( in my opinion ) courrier flying.
That should keep that person occupied and attentive for some time.
If it is a horror story that grabs the public fancy that will keep the airline industry way out of the spotlight and be beneficial to our industry.
After some time on the phone answering questions my suggestion was to have an in depth look at the most risky and dangerous job in aviation ( in my opinion ) courrier flying.
That should keep that person occupied and attentive for some time.
If it is a horror story that grabs the public fancy that will keep the airline industry way out of the spotlight and be beneficial to our industry.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
To elaborate a little bit more on why the 30-day performance aspect is such a threat to continued safety, compare the flying and weather in June to that in December.
In June, its dead easy to meet sked assuming your aircraft is maintained properly. Load the freight, blast off, direct to the FAF from 150NM away, cancel through 12,500 keep the speed up to the marker, chop your power, flaps, gear, flare, squeek squeek, unload and hit the local greasy spoon. On time! Customer is happy as the monthly performance is looking great. You've just completed a flight with ideal conditions, hopefully saving a couple bucks in airtime and fuel for your boss in the process. To bad that this is what he has costed the entire year on.
In December, its a bit more challenging. Load the significantly heavier freight (don't forget those xmas gifts), get in line for your departure slot because the YVR winter weather is crap, watch your fuel drop to just about your minimum and...oh wait here you go cleared for takeoff. Airborne through 3000 feet and you're getting ice. Not too bad plus you'll be in the clear in another 3000. On top, you're cruising 15 kts slower than normal. Pick up the new weather at your destination in the BC interior: 0000 1SM BKN010 -SN M01/M03 29.78. The CAP shows a LOC B approach with minimums of 1800'AGL, but have gotten your hands on (from a buddy) another company's restricted LOC B for the same airport that gets you down to 1100'AGL. You have not been trained for this approach as your company is not approved to do it. But its basically the same thing as the CAP but with lower minimums and a slightly different missed approach. What choice do you have, you think? You need to get in within the next 45 minutes or else you won't be able to get enough rest for your scheduled split duty day and the evening departure will be delayed. So you choose- break minimums to get in and get your rest, or miss and spend the entire day waiting for the weather to clear only to eventually break your 14 hr duty limit to complete your work. Cancelling the evening flight will NOT be supported by management, and there are no other pilots to call in as the company doesn't maintain reserves.
I guess you'll try to get in now then. To the marker, procedure turn outbound you're back into cloud and picking up a bit more ice. 6 minutes later, inbound on the LOC and now down below the CAP minimums with nothing but white in the window. Ease it down a bit more as you're already 19 minutes late, now at the restricted minimums nothing forward but you can see the lake out your side window. Ahh what's another hundred feet down you got the ground in sight anyway....your buttcheeks pucker up as you catch the shoreline below just as you break out into light snow and 3500-foot granite walls to each side. Take a deep breath as you land, taxi, unload and report to FSS "we had the field at minimums" as your PIREP to the traffic now inbound after you. 'Nother day at the office you think as you leave your plane on the snowy ramp for the day. Too bad you're only half done.
In June, its dead easy to meet sked assuming your aircraft is maintained properly. Load the freight, blast off, direct to the FAF from 150NM away, cancel through 12,500 keep the speed up to the marker, chop your power, flaps, gear, flare, squeek squeek, unload and hit the local greasy spoon. On time! Customer is happy as the monthly performance is looking great. You've just completed a flight with ideal conditions, hopefully saving a couple bucks in airtime and fuel for your boss in the process. To bad that this is what he has costed the entire year on.
In December, its a bit more challenging. Load the significantly heavier freight (don't forget those xmas gifts), get in line for your departure slot because the YVR winter weather is crap, watch your fuel drop to just about your minimum and...oh wait here you go cleared for takeoff. Airborne through 3000 feet and you're getting ice. Not too bad plus you'll be in the clear in another 3000. On top, you're cruising 15 kts slower than normal. Pick up the new weather at your destination in the BC interior: 0000 1SM BKN010 -SN M01/M03 29.78. The CAP shows a LOC B approach with minimums of 1800'AGL, but have gotten your hands on (from a buddy) another company's restricted LOC B for the same airport that gets you down to 1100'AGL. You have not been trained for this approach as your company is not approved to do it. But its basically the same thing as the CAP but with lower minimums and a slightly different missed approach. What choice do you have, you think? You need to get in within the next 45 minutes or else you won't be able to get enough rest for your scheduled split duty day and the evening departure will be delayed. So you choose- break minimums to get in and get your rest, or miss and spend the entire day waiting for the weather to clear only to eventually break your 14 hr duty limit to complete your work. Cancelling the evening flight will NOT be supported by management, and there are no other pilots to call in as the company doesn't maintain reserves.
I guess you'll try to get in now then. To the marker, procedure turn outbound you're back into cloud and picking up a bit more ice. 6 minutes later, inbound on the LOC and now down below the CAP minimums with nothing but white in the window. Ease it down a bit more as you're already 19 minutes late, now at the restricted minimums nothing forward but you can see the lake out your side window. Ahh what's another hundred feet down you got the ground in sight anyway....your buttcheeks pucker up as you catch the shoreline below just as you break out into light snow and 3500-foot granite walls to each side. Take a deep breath as you land, taxi, unload and report to FSS "we had the field at minimums" as your PIREP to the traffic now inbound after you. 'Nother day at the office you think as you leave your plane on the snowy ramp for the day. Too bad you're only half done.
Dockjock, you have the contract particulars down reasonably pat but I do think you are a bit overboard on the pressure put on the pilots. At least with the two courier companies I have been involved with in the last 16 years. Bank courier managers do indeed have a "get it done at all costs, damn the safety" attitude that can be contagous to the uninitiated pilots but it has been my experience that when push comes to shove, most pilots flying for reputable companies are insulated from the courier managers. Where I was and am, bank courier managers were never ever even allowed to converse with pilots about operational issues. All communication came to the Ops Manager who either acted on the complaint OR TOSSED IT IN THE WASTEBASKET. I was never ever coerced into flying when it was unsafe. All operational decisions were mine and mine alone. If I cancelled, I cancelled. Period. We were never ever allowed to bust duty days. Bend, yes, but never bust. If any duty days were bust, it was more the pilots own doing than pressure of job action from management. We flew airplanes that were the minimum servicable but they were servicable. They looked like shit but they were in fairly good shape. Maybe some air operators pushed the envelope a bit too far with fatal results in the last year or so and this is something that unfortunatly will continue to happen as long as there is competition. When I worked for a roadbuilder, They had the same problems. Take a look at the trucking industy. They all have the same problem. All I am saying is if a young pilot is looking for a good job where he or she can build a lot of good experience safely, look at the couriers, but look very carefully. Talk to the pilots and see what the corperate culture is like. They are not all bad. Some are, but not all.
Everone says safety comes first. Aviation safety is our number one priority. I am here to say that is all bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Safety is a distant number two or three. Profits is number one. Look at any airline or business that is profitable and you will find a safe operation. Safety costs and if there is no money, - no safety. Always has been and always will. As soon as we realize this is the way things are, the sooner we can better manage the risks. IMHO anyway.
MDM
Everone says safety comes first. Aviation safety is our number one priority. I am here to say that is all bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Safety is a distant number two or three. Profits is number one. Look at any airline or business that is profitable and you will find a safe operation. Safety costs and if there is no money, - no safety. Always has been and always will. As soon as we realize this is the way things are, the sooner we can better manage the risks. IMHO anyway.
MDM
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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ZBB118.10
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- Location: Vancouver in my dreams, England in my nightmares..
Right on Dockjock....
I think you summarized a few guys average work day very well indeed. It sucks that it has to be like that but those pressures can be very real. They can do nothing more than breed contempt for the company you work for and at the very least makes you feel glad to be back on the ground at your home base at the end of the day. Courier work (i.e. 703 cargo) is brutal. Transport don't seem to care about the realities of what really happens from a safety viewpoint. But a year or two flying courier stuff (and assuming you come out unscathed) and you will gain a ton of experience that will serve you well in your continuing aviation career.
I think you summarized a few guys average work day very well indeed. It sucks that it has to be like that but those pressures can be very real. They can do nothing more than breed contempt for the company you work for and at the very least makes you feel glad to be back on the ground at your home base at the end of the day. Courier work (i.e. 703 cargo) is brutal. Transport don't seem to care about the realities of what really happens from a safety viewpoint. But a year or two flying courier stuff (and assuming you come out unscathed) and you will gain a ton of experience that will serve you well in your continuing aviation career.
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A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
It has been a lot of years since I flew courrier flights.
But you can take it to the bank that I was pressured, threatened and argued with to fly overloads and unserviceable aircraft and to push weather that was insane....that is why I quit.
Cat
But you can take it to the bank that I was pressured, threatened and argued with to fly overloads and unserviceable aircraft and to push weather that was insane....that is why I quit.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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ZBB118.10
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- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:31 am
- Location: Vancouver in my dreams, England in my nightmares..
RCAP is a joke.
Could somebody please explain the criteria required by TC for a company to get an RCAP approved approach? From what I have seen, few companies offer any additional training for these procedures and there is no additional equipment needed - just a cash handover to TC.
Aren't you just paying extra cash out to go below minimums? (often in worn out old piston twins at MLW)
Could somebody please explain the criteria required by TC for a company to get an RCAP approved approach? From what I have seen, few companies offer any additional training for these procedures and there is no additional equipment needed - just a cash handover to TC.
Aren't you just paying extra cash out to go below minimums? (often in worn out old piston twins at MLW)
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A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
Hey altiplano,
True you're there to build time...but if you have to circle or shoot another approach - it's still a 1.2
Next week, hell, the next day prove that you had to shoot the missed and come around again. It'll always be a 1.2 in the air.
Log lighter the you do to keep it within W&B.
Oh...what am I talking about. There is no such pressure from mgmt.
My mistake.
RJ
True you're there to build time...but if you have to circle or shoot another approach - it's still a 1.2
Next week, hell, the next day prove that you had to shoot the missed and come around again. It'll always be a 1.2 in the air.
Log lighter the you do to keep it within W&B.
Oh...what am I talking about. There is no such pressure from mgmt.
My mistake.
RJ
Perhaps the pressure isn't direct, but that's not the point. People point to there not being any pressure just because their chief pilot never actually walked up to them and said, "go fly now and break minimums". He's not stupid!
Safety is a culture, not just a written set of rules or policies. At a safe airline, a lot of these issues aren't even an "issue" at all- just part of the normal way a company does business.
It seems in these types of companies, a real lack of policy direction, oversight, and safety culture forces pilots to make an inordinate number of unpopular 'go/no go' decisions- often every day.
Example,
Company has promised to the customer a 1000 lb payload of route X. Pilots know that realistically a 800 lb payload is the most the aircraft can take, because the route was costed single pilot but is flown 2 crew as the copilot represents another revenue stream for the company (paid for PPC, promised 'free' flight time). So the Captain, every single day, is the one that has to put his foot down. He's told over and over, "its your decision" but the underlying expectation is there- the company is set up in a way that unduly pressures him. Can you imagine a company that bumps the copilot before the freight? Its crazy.
Crap like this does happen, and if you don't believe it you just haven't seen it yet. Thankfully it is at its worst when the industry is at a low cycle, and we're coming out of that rapidly so this type of thing will disappear. It will be back though, you can count on it.
Safety is a culture, not just a written set of rules or policies. At a safe airline, a lot of these issues aren't even an "issue" at all- just part of the normal way a company does business.
It seems in these types of companies, a real lack of policy direction, oversight, and safety culture forces pilots to make an inordinate number of unpopular 'go/no go' decisions- often every day.
Example,
Company has promised to the customer a 1000 lb payload of route X. Pilots know that realistically a 800 lb payload is the most the aircraft can take, because the route was costed single pilot but is flown 2 crew as the copilot represents another revenue stream for the company (paid for PPC, promised 'free' flight time). So the Captain, every single day, is the one that has to put his foot down. He's told over and over, "its your decision" but the underlying expectation is there- the company is set up in a way that unduly pressures him. Can you imagine a company that bumps the copilot before the freight? Its crazy.
Crap like this does happen, and if you don't believe it you just haven't seen it yet. Thankfully it is at its worst when the industry is at a low cycle, and we're coming out of that rapidly so this type of thing will disappear. It will be back though, you can count on it.
Last edited by Dockjock on Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Company has promised to the customer a 1000 ** payload of route X. Pilots know that realistically a 800 ** payload is the most the aircraft can take, because the route was costed single pilot but is flown 2 crew as the copilot represents another revenue stream for the company (paid for PPC, promised 'free' flight time
like the Canadex yyz-jfk run done by some in a van.
like the Canadex yyz-jfk run done by some in a van.
Re:
abc xyz wrote:Company has promised to the customer a 1000 ** payload of route X. Pilots know that realistically a 800 ** payload is the most the aircraft can take, because the route was costed single pilot but is flown 2 crew as the copilot represents another revenue stream for the company (paid for PPC, promised 'free' flight time
like the Canadex yyz-jfk run done by some in a van.
hi abc xyz,
Dont know if you still post on here but do you happen to know if the Canadex yyz-jfk is still running today?
thank you
Re: Cargo Contracts
Hoping to score some 'free' flight time?bluenote wrote:abc xyz wrote:Company has promised to the customer a 1000 ** payload of route X. Pilots know that realistically a 800 ** payload is the most the aircraft can take, because the route was costed single pilot but is flown 2 crew as the copilot represents another revenue stream for the company (paid for PPC, promised 'free' flight time
like the Canadex yyz-jfk run done by some in a van.
hi abc xyz,
Dont know if you still post on here but do you happen to know if the Canadex yyz-jfk is still running today?
thank you
Re: Cargo Contracts
why is it always about free flight time these days? Couldn't care less about free flight time or any time as a matter of fact. Just asking if anyone out there knows if there is an air service that is running a cargo run to JFK from YYZ for Canadex and looking for their contact info as I'm trying to locate some info that's all.GyvAir wrote:Hoping to score some 'free' flight time?bluenote wrote:abc xyz wrote:Company has promised to the customer a 1000 ** payload of route X. Pilots know that realistically a 800 ** payload is the most the aircraft can take, because the route was costed single pilot but is flown 2 crew as the copilot represents another revenue stream for the company (paid for PPC, promised 'free' flight time
like the Canadex yyz-jfk run done by some in a van.
hi abc xyz,
Dont know if you still post on here but do you happen to know if the Canadex yyz-jfk is still running today?
thank you
thank you
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5400AirportRdSouth
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Re: Cargo Contracts
I'm just replying to keep this resurrected thread on the active thread list, so everyone else can enjoy scratching their heads until they see the dates of the original posts.
Remember, only YOU can stop Narcissism
