How do you value yourself as a low time pilot?

[Rwy17]

We are in a time right now where of the few jobs that are available, we have to fight for them. Sure, a low time pilot may not have as much experience compared to someone with 5000-6000 hours, but they still went through the same process of training, put in the same amount of effort, and many have the exact same amount of determination as those 5000 to 6000 hour pilots. How do young pilots, more specifically low time pilots define their value? One of the biggest fears that I have faced, especially in the past year is standing up for myself, out of the fear of burning bridges.

I had a friend discuss this fear with me today, and it got me thinking about how I handled a situation in the past.

I was in a situation 3 years ago, as a young pilot, where I spoke with a CFI about a position. He offered me the job and told me he’d then get in touch to discuss details. It was then a month of him not speaking to me, and almost ghosting me. Then to tell me he no longer needed me. I was thinking “Man, is this ever frustrating, I feel like my time has no value”. Wanting to get in touch with the guy and explain that he wasted my time and dragged me on, I decided not to because as a young pilot, I felt like I had no say in anything.

My advice, speak up, be confident, and don’t undervalue yourself or what you know. What advice does everyone else have for young pilots? Especially in a time like this where jobs are so scarce.

[rookiepilot]

Mmmmmm. Looking forward to the responses on this one.

Lousy story but it is what it is ---
There are ways to stand up politely while staying highly professional--- you're the one seeking the job after all. Bringing entitlement or emotion into it will get you nowhere.

My 02

Oh: edit -- your time is worth zero as the low experience job seeker, regardless of your training IMO -- that pretty much applies to any profession -- unfortunately --- isn't easy getting started out ---

[Admiral Benson]

My first 2 jobs after getting my CPL signed off were working for small operators in non flying roles. I moved across the country without knowing what I would be doing, or what the process/timeline was for moving into a flying position. The only thing they told me was that my hourly wage was $17/hr (2015) and when my start date was. It’s not the answer some people want to hear but when you have 203 hours all you should be saying is yes sir, you have very little to offer.

AB

[challenger_nami]

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Welcome to the world of Aviation.

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[skybluetrek]

Mmmmmm. Looking forward to the responses on this one.

Lousy story but it is what it is ---
There are ways to stand up politely while staying highly professional--- you're the one seeking the job after all. Bringing entitlement or emotion into it will get you nowhere.

My 02

Good question btw OP

[digits_]

I stalked a prospective employer once when he told me I could expect to get the job and he was going to call with details. He never called, and after 2 weeks of dodging my calls I went full stalker and called him 3 times a day. Eventually he answered the phone and told me -with an explanation- why I didn't get the job.

It was my first emotional job hunting rollercoaster in aviation. There will always be frustration, no matter what your experience level is. It might be related to your next job, the union, management, TC, ... Sometimes you can fight and stand your ground, other times it's better not to.


With regards to your initial situation: how did he waste your time? I get it is annoying, but telling him he wasted your time sounds a bit childish. He did get back to you eventually. Sending out resumes and going on interviews can be annoying and time consuming, but it's your choice to spend time on that. Until there is signed contract (or verbal agreement if you both really trust each other), no party is owed anything by the other.

[tired of the ground]

Self value and market value are 2 very different things.

A 200 hour pilot today has very little market value. A 200 hour pilot should have the same self value as a 20,000 hour pilot. You are not your job and your self worth isn't tied to your job.

Market value is a supply/demand issue. How many people are capable of handling the tasks of a 200 hour pilot? Pretty well anyone with a licence. 500 hours? Fewer people have that experience and so supply goes down and salaries/work conditions go up. 2000 hours? Fewer people have that experience and so supply goes down and salaries/work conditions go up. It just keeps going.

Regardless of your experience level, if you are job hunting, no-one owes you anything. How you are treated during the hiring/onboarding process can (or not) be a window in how you will be treated if hired. Only you can make the decision whether the employment contract/environment matches your perceived market value.

[youhavecontrol]

When I applied for my first job, I knew the flight hours I had were not worth much, but flight hours are only one part of my work experience. I made an effort to show my other work experience by emphasizing that I worked in the oil patch prior to my training, talked about how I operated trucks and machinery and worked alone in remote regions representing my employer. It's a demonstration of decision making, knowledge of machines, communication skills, and perhaps not flight related but still very relevant and valuable. It absolutely worked, and my first aviation employer mentioned they were impressed with my resume.

In some cases work experience doesn't have to be flight experience.

I know my own value, but it's always a an art to properly express it to an employer, who may be looking at you through the lens of insurance, contract requirements, personal bias or sometimes the chip on their shoulder. Sometimes you need to earn that pilot seat. Other times, you've already earned it.

If they don't contact you, it could be for a number of reasons. A) You don't qualify, and they're not obligated to call you back. B) You qualify, but they don't like you, and they're not obligated to call you back. C) You qualify, they like you, but they like someone else better and they're not obligated to call you back. D) They don't need you, and are not obligated to call you back.

[Schooner69A]

It's always a case of "supply and demand".

Back in the mid-sixties, when the airline expansion occurred and jets were the thing, jet experience was prime. Even single engine jet time was prized: mainly because you knew about low/slow/engine response time/etc; these folks were hired ahead of people with more time/experience. A few years go by and it's the era of 21 years old/10000 hours 747 time. Another decade and the flying schools/northern operators/small aviation companies are having trouble retaining pilots because anybody with a few thousand hours and a commercial licence are being snapped up because of a pilot shortage and the effects ripple down the line.

It's anybody's guess what will happen post-covid...

[throwaway123]

The best thing you can do to set yourself apart from other 200 hours pilots is to show value in other aspects. Even if it's something simple like previous customer service experience, sales or mechanical know-how. Anything to set yourself apart. Also never forget about networking. My first job was through a friend of a friend from flight school who knew I was in the area and reached out.

[DadoBlade]

Value myself? Same as I would as a high-time pilot. Am I embarrassed by answering this dumb-ass question? Yes...

[peakbagger]

You’re not very valuable. You are a dime a dozen. Also when you reference that you have “gone through the same process of training”, you haven’t. All of those 5000-6000 hours of extra flying are when you truly learn how to fly. Your CPL is a licence to learn.
Be sure to keep your self respect along the way, and keep at it. Sorry it’s not an uplifting message but it is what it is. Good luck on your journey and enjoy the ride.

[fish4life]

Think of it this way.

I have a house that I live in and quite enjoy it, it’s value to me is far above market value so even if I were to list my house for sale it would be double what it is worth. Would my house sell? No but that’s ok because I’m not trying to sell it.

Now if I need to sell my house (job hunt) it would be unreasonable for me to expect it to sell when it is the same price as much bigger nicer homes around (high time pilots).

Now I have a decision to make do I drop the price on my house to market value (low time pilot) which right now is really low? Or do I wait until all the big houses are sold so I’m the only house left for sale?

[valleyboy]

The cyclic nature of aviation will not change, maybe expectations and goals of pilots might. Just take a look at the present time and the guys who are working and those who are not. Airline work has lost some of the appeal.

I know a lot of things have evolved and one of the biggest is attitude. If you could go direct entry into a level 1 or 2 carrier you would be treated pretty much as an equal, except for that pesky seniority number. Working for mum and pop, most are still stuck in the 80's and before in their style of managing.

It's funny that there has been so much put on to "road trips" and yes keeping up that constant pressure to hire you. This might work for some but from my experience most chief pilots never remember the guys who walk through their doors on a drop in and certainly strike anyone from the list who calls relentlessly. I know I did all of the above.

Hard times are here and we are at the bottom of the trough. The crest disappeared almost over night. That's what is different but the crawl back to the crest will be as slow as ever. Sad news for those who are 200 hours and looking for that first job.

As mentioned, supply and demand. There are some carriers out there that are still pissed from having their feet held to the fire during the pilot shortage. These and others will be will be looking for their pound of flesh. Wages and bonds, be prepared.

[McKinley]

Your work ethic, strong back, flexibility, ability to take constructive criticism and willingness and ability to learn.

It’s a employer’s market right now. 5000 hours is the new 200 hours... I don’t foresee much changing in Canada imminently .

I agree with the previous poster.. the climb out of this one will resemble the climb rate of an overloaded clapped out C172 out of Denver on a scorching hot day ... very very slow.

This also assumes there’s no additional financial crisis that follows this pandemic. Which, there’s a strong chance of IMO.. the carnage on so many levels that will be left behind by COVID will be gargantuan and the impacts haven’t been truly felt yet... ( just my opinion)

[PilotDAR]

Your work ethic, strong back, flexibility, ability to take constructive criticism and willingness and ability to learn.

There's the key. At least for the Ma and Pa operations, you're looking for the boss who says to you: "I will never ask you to do a job around here that I would not do.", because, that's the truth, and the boss has done them all. Now, the boss is considering hiring you to do some of those jobs, including some of the yucky ones. Do not value yourself above these menial jobs. The boss did them, so should you, and probably for longer than you think you should. Ask yourself, did the boss do them for longer than they thought they should? Does the boss still do these menial jobs for themself from time to time, just because they need to be done, and it's after hours, and no one else as around to do them? Yes, the boss does, and so should you.

In hind sight, I've had some really pleasing piloting jobs, and offers for more, which I chose to not take. I have not ever applied for a job, flying, or otherwise, formally. In nearly all cases, I was asked/invited to do the job. I now look back, as the boss, and see what I'd been doing all the way along, which made me attractive to the boss at the time - the job - all of it, whatever it turned out to be. If I decided that in the long term, I did not like it, I respectfully moved on when the time was right, and I have, but I never left any boss in the lurch, and never burnt a bridge.

So value yourself as a hard working, respectful person first, and a pilot thereafter. When the boss trusts you to do the job well, completely, and with care, they will probably be happy to trust you with their plane too!

[McKinley]

The only other thing I’d add that’s “ Pro” pilot is that id never accept unsafe work. Fly within your limits. You could lose your job yes... but guaranteed the operator who is “ pushing you” will point the finger back at you should something go awry. As will your co-workers at a company with an unsafe culture. Let’s also be honest, out of flight school your “ toolbox” won’t be substantial.

When you’re on the ramp you can interview the employers and your coworkers just as they’re interviewing you.

Protect your As$&!!! And your license... the buck stops with you... don’t take that responsibility lightly. The popular decision isn’t necessarily the correct one.

[“Bob”]

You did not put the same effort in to get 200 hours and a CPL.

I have 5000-6000 hours. 20 years in the industry. The easiest part was getting my CPL. The trade I got before that was much harder.

Harder than the CPL were the menial jobs I needed to do to pay for it (daddy didn’t buy my licence) and even harder was getting that elusive first job.

5 years of not flying professionally between being a newbie and layoffs. 10 years of flying seasonally. And finally 5 years of full time flying. Lots of road trips. Lots of unsuccessful interviews. 8 jobs lots of which had nothing to do with aviation. Lots training, ground schools, CBT, exams, PPCs, line-indoc, BS, &ct. Delays, diversions, abnormalities, failures, emergencies. I’ve got a wall where I keep all of my CADORs. Some were my fault. Some weren’t. Some weren’t anyone’s fault. Some didn’t make it into the CADORs but still make me wake up screaming.

No.. .....no 200 hour wonder has put anywhere near that amount of effort into a flying career. And I consider the effort I put in absolutely minimal.

Determination is what gets the unskilled killed. Contrary to popular belief, it’s rarely the organization that forces pilots to go. It’s the pilots themselves trying to prove themselves to management or the other pilots if they don’t have the hours or paper or the knowledge or experience to back it up.

Once upon a time not so long ago forcing new pilots to fly was the case among an ever dwindling number of less-than-reputable operators but not anymore. Except a couple they are all broke or shut down or finally adapted to the 1990s.

Of course a 200 hour wonder has more determination than me. I’m lazy, been at this too long, and I don’t care anymore... BUT.... I still have to pay the bills! My creativity for getting out of flying and work in general knows no bounds.

But really? Nobody cares if you don’t go. Maybe dispatch cares because then it means they actually have to do their jobs. Be wary of dispatchers. But come on! The same people or boxes will be there tomorrow. There’s no medals or bonuses waiting for you if you do go. Only the absolute worst operators still pay mileage with a base pay right out of the 70s or block or flight hours with no guarantees or top ups.

So don’t be too determined. Part of your value is to have standards. A lot of the downward pressure in this industry are desperate pilots who will do anything for a flying job. Where does it stop? Washing the boss’s car doesn’t increase profitability or give an aura of professionalism. It’s for cheap bastards to get their kicks and save on personal expenses or efforts. Set boundaries.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

@"Bob":

That post started out sounding like another "I suffered, so you should too" post. But I must say, it was, I think, one of the most well balanced opinions I've ever read here. Thank you for your opinion.

[trey kule]

Contrary to popular belief, it’s rarely the organization that forces pilots to go. It’s the pilots themselves trying to prove themselves to management or the other pilots if they don’t have the hours or paper or the knowledge or experience to back it up.

Truer words were never posted.