Unusual traffic in Canadian skies?

[daniel.o]

Hi all,

I'm a Canadian journalist who has written for outlets like the Toronto Star and The Globe and Mail.

Inspired by recent reporting in The New York Times and cases like this one from Toronto, I'm currently looking to talk to pilots who have encountered odd traffic in Canadian airspace, such as unusual drones/UAV/lights/objects/etc.

My goal is to show that 1) events like these happen in Canadian airspace, and 2) find out if Canadian officials take the flight safety and national security implications of such sightings seriously.

Have a story to share? Send me a message or email me at otisstories [at] gmail [dot] com. If you wish to remain anonymous, that's totally fine with me too.

Thanks!

Daniel
@dsotis

[Dias]

I have no faith in modern journalism to accurately convey a story as it happened.

[kevind]

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aclrHYTh8[/YouTube]

[Cavalier44]

Maybe write an article about how Canada is the only G7 nation that has not yet implemented sector-specific financial support for the aviation industry, and how thousands of pilots, flight attendants, crew schedulers, ground crew members, gate agents, etc. are now out of work, with hundreds more losing their jobs seemingly every week. No one gives a damn about this UFO nonsense.

[daniel.o]

Hi all,

I'm a Canadian journalist who has written for outlets like the Toronto Star and The Globe and Mail.

Inspired by recent reporting in The New York Times and cases like this one from Toronto, I'm currently looking to talk to pilots who have encountered odd traffic in Canadian airspace, such as unusual drones/UAV/lights/objects/etc.

My goal is to show that 1) events like these happen in Canadian airspace, and 2) find out if Canadian officials take the passenger safety and national security implications of such sightings seriously.

Have a story to share? Send me a message or email me at otisstories [at] gmail [dot] com. If you wish to remain anonymous, that's totally fine with me too.

Thanks!

Daniel
@dsotis

[daniel.o]

Maybe write an article about how Canada is the only G7 nation that has not yet implemented sector-specific financial support for the aviation industry, and how thousands of pilots, flight attendants, crew schedulers, ground crew members, gate agents, etc. are now out of work, with hundreds more losing their jobs seemingly every week. No one gives a damn about this UFO nonsense.

Hey Cavalier44. People give a damn about passenger safety and national security. They also care about pilots and aircraft crews trying to make ends meet in these troubling times. I know a few Canadian transportation and business journalists you could reach out to if you'd like to talk about how current industry issues have impacted you and your colleagues' lives. Let me know!

[Cavalier44]

Maybe write an article about how Canada is the only G7 nation that has not yet implemented sector-specific financial support for the aviation industry, and how thousands of pilots, flight attendants, crew schedulers, ground crew members, gate agents, etc. are now out of work, with hundreds more losing their jobs seemingly every week. No one gives a damn about this UFO nonsense.

Hey Cavalier44. People give a damn about passenger safety and national security. They also care about pilots and aircraft crews trying to make ends meet in these troubling times. I know a few Canadian transportation and business journalists you could reach out to if you'd like to talk about how current industry issues have impacted you and your colleagues' lives. Let me know!

Okay, let me be more clear. In the last decade that I’ve been flying passengers across this country working for various airlines large and small, I’ve never had a passenger express a concern to me that their own safety or national security as a whole might be jeopardized by the existence of UFOs.

There is a real and significant history of flights coming into close proximity with drones in the proximity of an airport, typically during landing, but let me be clear that those are known objects and ATC takes any loss of separation very seriously. Perhaps this is where you’re getting confused - there is no history of the safety of any flight than I’m aware of being somehow placed in jeopardy by a UFO/top secret government drone, strange lights, etc. In short - it’s not an issue.

With that being said - if people really start believing that the safety of their flight could be negatively affected by UFOs and other nonsense, I will attribute it to sensationalistic journalism, case in point the article that you’re attempting to write. I consider it personally offensive that in a time of such pain and difficulty for our industry, this is what you’ve chosen to focus your efforts on.

[daniel.o]

Maybe write an article about how Canada is the only G7 nation that has not yet implemented sector-specific financial support for the aviation industry, and how thousands of pilots, flight attendants, crew schedulers, ground crew members, gate agents, etc. are now out of work, with hundreds more losing their jobs seemingly every week. No one gives a damn about this UFO nonsense.

Hey Cavalier44. People give a damn about passenger safety and national security. They also care about pilots and aircraft crews trying to make ends meet in these troubling times. I know a few Canadian transportation and business journalists you could reach out to if you'd like to talk about how current industry issues have impacted you and your colleagues' lives. Let me know!

Okay, let me be more clear. In the last decade that I’ve been flying passengers across this country working for various airlines large and small, I’ve never had a passenger express a concern to me that their own safety or national security as a whole might be jeopardized by the existence of UFOs.

There is a real and significant history of flights coming into close proximity with drones in the proximity of an airport, typically during landing, but let me be clear that those are known objects and ATC takes any loss of separation very seriously. Perhaps this is where you’re getting confused - there is no history of the safety of any flight than I’m aware of being somehow placed in jeopardy by a UFO/top secret government drone, strange lights, etc. In short - it’s not an issue.

With that being said - if people really start believing that the safety of their flight could be negatively affected by UFOs and other nonsense, I will attribute it to sensationalistic journalism, case in point the article that you’re attempting to write. I consider it personally offensive that in a time of such pain and difficulty for our industry, this is what you’ve chosen to focus your efforts on.

Any thoughts on this case, Cavalier44? https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/11/23/ ... not-drone/

And here are more details from the TSB:
"C-GLQL, a de Havilland DHC-8-402 aircraft operated by Porter Airlines, was conducting flight POE204 from Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier Intl, ON (CYOW) to Toronto/Billy Bishop Toronto City, ON (CYTZ). While passing through 8300 feet approximately 29 nautical miles East on the initial approach to CYTZ, the flight crew noticed an object directly ahead on their flight path. The object appeared to be solid, approximately 5 to 8 feet in diameter and shaped like an upright doughnut or inner tube. There appeared to be no relative movement and the object was rapidly getting closer to the aircraft. The captain overrode the autopilot in order to quickly descend the aircraft under the object. The object passed slightly to the right and above the aircraft. There was no impact. Both cabin crew members were in the process of securing the cabin for arrival and were not seated. They received minor injuries when they were thrown into the cabin structure. The aircraft subsequently landed at CYTZ without further incident."

Not trying to be sensational here. Seriously. I don't write about things like UFOs or aliens either. I do however see a bit of a mystery here, and that's why I'm asking questions. That's also why I'm engaging with sceptics like you! I believe that 99.99% of so-called "UFO" sightings have conventional explanations, and I recognize that trained observers like pilots are much better equipped than me to analyze such cases.

[FL030]

So you can completely butcher the story and somehow work in an opinion that aliens would be a welcome addition to any culturally diverse workforce?

[daniel.o]

So you can completely butcher the story and somehow work in an opinion that aliens would be a welcome addition to any culturally diverse workforce?

You got me, FL030! My real motivation is to have little green flying saucer pilots zipping human passengers from YYZ to LHR in under an hour. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

But jokes aside, I believe that most of these sightings have conventional explanations, and I also fundamentally recognize that trained observers like veteran pilots are WAY better equipped than me to analyze such cases -- and that's why I'm reaching out.

For example, I'd love to hear your opinion on these two:
- https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/11/23/ ... not-drone/
- https://globalnews.ca/news/7659655/amer ... ght-audio/

[Cavalier44]

Any thoughts on this case, Cavalier44? https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/11/23/ ... not-drone/

And here are more details from the TSB:
"C-GLQL, a de Havilland DHC-8-402 aircraft operated by Porter Airlines, was conducting flight POE204 from Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier Intl, ON (CYOW) to Toronto/Billy Bishop Toronto City, ON (CYTZ). While passing through 8300 feet approximately 29 nautical miles East on the initial approach to CYTZ, the flight crew noticed an object directly ahead on their flight path. The object appeared to be solid, approximately 5 to 8 feet in diameter and shaped like an upright doughnut or inner tube. There appeared to be no relative movement and the object was rapidly getting closer to the aircraft. The captain overrode the autopilot in order to quickly descend the aircraft under the object. The object passed slightly to the right and above the aircraft. There was no impact. Both cabin crew members were in the process of securing the cabin for arrival and were not seated. They received minor injuries when they were thrown into the cabin structure. The aircraft subsequently landed at CYTZ without further incident."

Not trying to be sensational here. Seriously. I don't write about things like UFOs or aliens either. I do however see a bit of a mystery here, and that's why I'm asking questions. That's also why I'm engaging with sceptics like you! I believe that 99.99% of so-called "UFO" sightings have conventional explanations, and I recognize that trained observers like pilots are much better equipped than me to analyze such cases.

My thoughts are - it was a balloon. There’s no mystery.

If I’m descending through 8,300 feet near a major urban area and I see a donut shaped object floating upright in the air, it’s almost certainly a party balloon. A few years ago, descending into Quebec City, I passed a large bundle of multi-coloured balloons tied together. I reported it to ATC - there’s no other action to be taken. If the cabin isn’t secured and there’s likely passengers or flight attendants standing in the aisle, will I take evasive action to avoid a balloon? No - the risk of injuring someone is much greater than the risk of any sort of structural damage to the aircraft from impact with a balloon. In my personal opinion that would be a lapse in decision making - but not a due to any sort of mystery, unknown force, suspicious activity, etc. I wouldn’t conflate easily explainable phenomena with “odd traffic... such as unusual drones/UAV/lights/objects/etc”.

[ahramin]

Daniel.o,

Usually when journalists come on this site looking for information they post their full names. This enables us to read what they have already written on the subject and see if they are actual aviation journalists or just hacks. Aviation reporting is a specialized subset of journalism requiring subject matter knowledge. If you don't want to waste our time and yours, I suggest you provide some links to your previous aviation articles.

[daniel.o]

Any thoughts on this case, Cavalier44? https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/11/23/ ... not-drone/

And here are more details from the TSB:
"C-GLQL, a de Havilland DHC-8-402 aircraft operated by Porter Airlines, was conducting flight POE204 from Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier Intl, ON (CYOW) to Toronto/Billy Bishop Toronto City, ON (CYTZ). While passing through 8300 feet approximately 29 nautical miles East on the initial approach to CYTZ, the flight crew noticed an object directly ahead on their flight path. The object appeared to be solid, approximately 5 to 8 feet in diameter and shaped like an upright doughnut or inner tube. There appeared to be no relative movement and the object was rapidly getting closer to the aircraft. The captain overrode the autopilot in order to quickly descend the aircraft under the object. The object passed slightly to the right and above the aircraft. There was no impact. Both cabin crew members were in the process of securing the cabin for arrival and were not seated. They received minor injuries when they were thrown into the cabin structure. The aircraft subsequently landed at CYTZ without further incident."

Not trying to be sensational here. Seriously. I don't write about things like UFOs or aliens either. I do however see a bit of a mystery here, and that's why I'm asking questions. That's also why I'm engaging with sceptics like you! I believe that 99.99% of so-called "UFO" sightings have conventional explanations, and I recognize that trained observers like pilots are much better equipped than me to analyze such cases.

My thoughts are - it was a balloon. There’s no mystery.

If I’m descending through 8,300 feet near a major urban area and I see a donut shaped object floating upright in the air, it’s almost certainly a party balloon. A few years ago, descending into Quebec City, I passed a large bundle of multi-coloured balloons tied together. I reported it to ATC - there’s no other action to be taken. If the cabin isn’t secured and there’s likely passengers or flight attendants standing in the aisle, will I take evasive action to avoid a balloon? No - the risk of injuring someone is much greater than the risk of any sort of structural damage to the aircraft from impact with a balloon. In my personal opinion that would be a lapse in decision making - but not a due to any sort of mystery, unknown force, suspicious activity, etc. I wouldn’t conflate easily explainable phenomena with “odd traffic... such as unusual drones/UAV/lights/objects/etc”.

That makes sense, Cavalier44. Thank you.

But! For argument's sake, I have to share the text of the original CADOR: "At 1222Z, a Porter Airlines de Havilland DHC-8-402 (POE204) from Ottawa, ON (CYOW) to Toronto, ON (CYTZ) reported "flying by" an unidentified object, not likely a balloon."

I'd also be curious to hear your take on this story: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/p ... ilots.html

Again, it's only by engaging with experienced pilots like yourself that I'll be able to sort fact from fiction and avoid any silly and unnecessary sensationalism. If, at the end of the day, I have no real story to share (other than an obvious one about how private citizens in Canada need to be subject to more stringent drone/UAV/RPAS regulations) that's more than fine with me. I really appreciate your input and insight!

[daniel.o]

Daniel.o,

Usually when journalists come on this site looking for information they post their full names. This enables us to read what they have already written on the subject and see if they are actual aviation journalists or just hacks. Aviation reporting is a specialized subset of journalism requiring subject matter knowledge. If you don't want to waste our time and yours, I suggest you provide some links to your previous aviation articles.

Hi ahramin. FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not an aviation journalist. I am, however, a former staff writer at both CTV News and the Toronto Star who has now gone freelance in order to operate more independently. As a freelancer, I have written for more than two dozen publications, including The Globe and Mail and The Diplomat. And as previously mentioned, the reason I'm on this forum is to listen, learn and enhance my aviation understanding. One has to start somewhere, right? And I'm not going to be able to tackle a topic as complex and nuanced as aviation incidents without listening to aviators like yourself.

As for my full name, there's no mystery there! I included a link to my Twitter page (https://twitter.com/dsotis) in my initial post. That page also includes links to my stories, several of which are aviation-related, like this one on the deadly legacy of cluster munitions in Laos (https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... tions.html) and this more lighthearted one on the wonderful Canadian veteran who used to run the Markham airport (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/1 ... plans.html) -- sadly, Mr. Rubin passed away in 2020. I also NEVER write UFO/alien stories. Much like recent reporting by non-aviation journalists in the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/us/p ... ports.html),I 'm interested in this topic from a national security and passenger safety perspective. And I hope that my past work demonstrates how I do my utmost to get facts right while being respectful and deferential to the people i interview. I hope that answers your questions!

[I WAS Birddog]

Hello Daniel.o,

Not sure if you are aware, but presently there are more drones in Canadian skies than airplanes. So that alone poses a problem in itself for your research with drones impacting airplanes over Canadian airspace.

May I suggest you contact the current and past Minister of Transport in hopes they may help nudge your intended story into fruition?

Safe travels

[P180]

Yeah no airplanes is the sky.Now thats unusual no wait thats what Mr what's his name in Ottawa wants.

[Localizer]

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aclrHYTh8[/YouTube]

LOL! Flux Capacitor! Marty! Marty! We have to go BACK TO THE FUTURE!

Love it!

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Hi Daniel,

You will find this forum generally hostile to reporters. There are many reasons why, but hopefully I can elucidate on the most prominent. Generally, reporters come here looking for information on a recent and usually high profile incident, or perhaps a political issue that has been in the news of late. Despite the best of intentions, they are writing for a public that will lose interest in that story by the next news cycle, and so need something to write before that. This is not compatible with aviation safety investigations; while a story is needed in days, the investigation will often take years. If you came around here looking for opinions on a recent incident (to be fair, you didn't), and then stuck around for the actual final report, you'd be the first. Prematurely publishing opinions on the causes of accidents is not simply a disservice to the victims and hurtful to the careers of the professionals involved, it is repugnant (in my opinion). Too many people have come before you and tried to do this. You're facing an uphill battle.

I actually did take the time to read some of your previous work. I enjoyed it. I am sure you have the best of intentions. Please don't take this the wrong way - your stories are kind, lighthearted, and I can see a humility in your work that most journalists lack. However, they lack the depth necessary, (with the notable exception of the Laos story) to accurately report on something as complicated as aviation safety. I particularly enjoyed your coverage of Algonquin and Pukaskwa parks, having traveled in both parks.

I would stay away from aviation safety stories, at least for now. You simply don't have the credibility to be trusted to report on them accurately and fairly - not because your motives are in question (in my opinion), but because you lack the necessary experience. I do not believe many people will trust you at this point. On the other hand, a lighthearted story on unidentified airborne objects, like the one I think you are working on here, may be a good starting point if you wish to dip your toes in aviation reporting.

Take that for what it's worth - I do not intend to be harsh. Hopefully my opinion here helps you in your journalistic endeavours. I very much enjoyed reading your previous works. If I may make one other suggestion - update your signature here to identify yourself as a journalist, and include your website and Twitter feed, in the interests of transparency.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aclrHYTh8[/YouTube]

LOL! Flux Capacitor! Marty! Marty! We have to go BACK TO THE FUTURE!

Love it!

Correction - she referred to it as the "Flux Capacitator".

Brilliant.

[daniel.o]

Hello Daniel.o,

Not sure if you are aware, but presently there are more drones in Canadian skies than airplanes. So that alone poses a problem in itself for your research with drones impacting airplanes over Canadian airspace.

May I suggest you contact the current and past Minister of Transport in hopes they may help nudge your intended story into fruition?

Safe travels

Yes! I very much plan to contact our current and past Transport Ministers -- after I gather a few more cases to reference. I've already interviewed a handful of pilots and I've also collected dozens of government documents that detail recent unusual observations by Canadian aviators. Even if we're just dealing with something like advanced U.S. surveillance equipment operating in Canadian airspace, the aviators who have come forward or filed official reports deserve answers -- not ridicule. And if they even have answers, I doubt that governmental bodies like TC will make them public without being poked and prodded.

As for drones, I've been finding reports of Canadian flights having near-misses with them at FL200 and above! It seems beyond DANGEROUS that civilians are legally allowed to purchase drones with that kind of range, no?