United Airlines hiring goals

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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by digits_ »

From the FAA stats, the ppl numbers are roughly the same https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviat ... tatistics/

If women don't even want to fly privately, why would they want to fly commercially?

Do we need awareness campaigns to get an even gender split for a hobby?
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by ant_321 »

photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:37 pm These are all things that many industries agree are less acceptable to women than men.
That is not an answer. It simply pushes the question down the road, so let me ask it. Why are they less acceptable to women?
Because men and women are different.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by Dh8Classic »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:33 am
Seriously: try to think of a reason why a sewer worker shouldn’t be a woman, without forming some discriminatory and disgusting piece of generalizing yeuch that starts “women in general are/aren’t...” any time your mind starts to go there, realize you’re part of the problem
Because no one wants to be a sewer worker. However women tend to not have the responsibility of being sole provider, so they can pick and choose more than men.
Still an argument without thought put into it. Anybody want to guess what the numbers would be when it comes to looking at sole providers only as the breakdown between men and women as sewer workers. Virtually no woman is going to do that, yet we have Photofly saying it is discrimination.

That being said, seeing as the government appears to be insistent on equity, I would support a program where any female who wants to benefit from such a hiring policy will have to go into a hiring pool with all kinds of male dominated industries such as sewer work, construction, trash collection, etc, and others along with flying and they wanted to participate would be forced at random to take one of these jobs(all of which have decent pay).

But thats not how it will work. Only the 'glory' jobs are the target. Why do we not have women in trash collecting clubs, women in sewage work programs. Those jobs will be left for you poor suckers as part of the new just society. Fortunately, I am old enough that it wont affect me.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by Dh8Classic »

photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:01 am
ReserveTank wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:59 am
Women are generally repulsed by manual labour and traditionally male work roles ...
You don't need to go any further: you are the problem. In fact, you could have stopped after the first three words.
The problem with you Photofly is that you come up with an opinion, and will won't allow reality or anything to change your mind. Yes, you are very good at finding rules and regulations, but your analytical capability in real world scenarios is ridiculous, even in the face of the obvious. I have seen it before. Now on this thread, you put forward ridiculous statements that 'systemic racism' is the reason why women are so under-represented as sewer workers. Anybody with half a brain knows that the percentage of women(or even men) that would seriously apply for such a thing would be virtually zero, even if there could somehow be an all female sewer cleaning company.


"Women have consistently higher levels of disgust than men. This sex difference is substantial in magnitude, highly replicable, emerges with diverse assessment methods, and affects a wide array of outcomes—including job selection, mate choice, food aversions, and psychological disorders. Despite the importance of this far-reaching sex difference, sound theoretical explanations have lagged behind the empirical discoveries. In this article, we focus on the evolutionary-functional level of analysis, outlining hypotheses capable of explaining why women have higher levels of disgust than men. We present four hypotheses for sexual disgust and six for pathogen disgust, along with testable predictions. Discussion focuses on additional new hypotheses and on future research capable of adjudicating among these competing, but not mutually exclusive, hypotheses."

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 3917709940
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pmAnyone with half a brain knows that the percentage of women(or even men) that would seriously apply for such a thing would be virtually zero, even if there could somehow be an all female sewer cleaning company.
It’s the “anyone with half a brain knows” arguments that are the most suspect. “It’s true because it’s obvious” isn’t an argument at all.

I think you might be misunderstanding what systemic discrimination is. It’s not a man (or a woman) in an office somewhere making decisions that disadvantage women or visible minorities. Systemic discrimination is discrimination by a thousand cuts, a million attitudes, a hundred thousand assumptions and a lack of role models to show what’s within reach. It’s the pervasive attitude that women must be different and must want different things than men, that “biology” explains why women don’t want to fly airplanes, and that “hormones” are an acceptable thought as to why women are outnumbered 13 to 1 by men. It’s not just that those arguments are wrong: the fact that anyone could think to raise them is an issue.

If I didn’t believe it in that kind of discrimination before, nothing could possibly convince me better than reading the comments in this thread.
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Last edited by photofly on Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by C-GGGQ »

photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:06 pm
Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pmAnyone with half a brain knows that the percentage of women(or even men) that would seriously apply for such a thing would be virtually zero, even if there could somehow be an all female sewer cleaning company.
It’s the “anyone with half a brain knows” arguments that are the most suspect. “It’s true because it’s obvious” isn’t an argument at all.

I think you might be misunderstanding what systemic discrimination is, it’s not a man (or a woman) in an office somewhere making decisions that disadvantage women or visible minorities. Systemic discrimination is discrimination by a thousand cuts, a million attitudes, a hundred thousand assumptions and a lack of role models to show what’s within reach.

If I didn’t believe it in before, nothing could possible convince me of its existence better than reading the comments in this thread.
Again, quote the whole thing. They gave you a valid scientific explanation from an actual paper.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by photofly »

I’ll look forward to reading it in due course. Can you post the article (that you’ve clearly read) because I can’t access more than the abstract, which doesn’t tell me very much.

Edit: I think this is the one:
https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2 ... an-Men.pdf

Something to study tomorrow.
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Last edited by photofly on Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:06 pm
Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pmAnyone with half a brain knows that the percentage of women(or even men) that would seriously apply for such a thing would be virtually zero, even if there could somehow be an all female sewer cleaning company.
It’s the “anyone with half a brain knows” arguments that are the most suspect. “It’s true because it’s obvious” isn’t an argument at all.

I think you might be misunderstanding what systemic discrimination is. It’s not a man (or a woman) in an office somewhere making decisions that disadvantage women or visible minorities. Systemic discrimination is discrimination by a thousand cuts, a million attitudes, a hundred thousand assumptions and a lack of role models to show what’s within reach. It’s the pervasive attitude that women must be different and must want different things than men, that “biology” explains why women don’t want to fly airplanes, and that “hormones” are an acceptable thought as to why women are outnumbered 13 to 1 by men. It’s not just that those arguments are wrong: the fact that anyone could think to raise them is an issue.

If I didn’t believe it in that kind of discrimination before, nothing could possibly convince me better than reading the comments in this thread.
Photofly I'd like to thank you for this comment. It's so very true. I look forward to a day when there will no longer be debates on what women want or feel by men. In the meantime I doubt American Airlines will be lowering their standards in their hiring practices. Now if only they would hire Canadians...
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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I think a valid question to ask the airline pilot cadre is whether they actually want a more equal workplace or not. If they do, what are they prepared to do, and what are they prepared to give up, to achieve it?
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:32 pm I think a valid question to ask the airline pilot cadre is whether they actually want a more equal workplace or not. If they do, what are they prepared to do, and what are they prepared to give up, to achieve it?
Yes. Equality of opportunity. Not the disgusting United Airlines hiring policy that is blatant in its intent. Fortunately, the US supreme court has an affirmative Action decision coming up. Hopefully one of Trump's legacy's will be that his supreme court picks along with the other justices(except obviously that one who was chosen to be there due race and gender, not who was most capable) will interpret the constitution as it is written. That all are equal and that the sickening policies implemented by those who ask what others are willing to sacrifice instead of what they are willing to sacrifice(which is nothing) will be stopped in its tracks.

It is nice to see the left get caught in their own sick policies sometimes. The people who use the discrimination card all the time have implemented affirmative action policies that blatantly discriminate against guess who: Asians. Now after embracing the Asians because of recent attacks(mostly by one particular race by the way), they are being reminded of what a bunch of bigots they actually are by their affirmative action policies. And now they are trying to defend the affirmative action overall policy yet somehow explain its anti-Asian content. The US supreme court case is based on the requirement for Asians to get higher scores in order to enter University that other groups. I await the decision on this grotesque law and those who would support it.
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Last edited by Dh8Classic on Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:32 pm I think a valid question to ask the airline pilot cadre is whether they actually want a more equal workplace or not. If they do, what are they prepared to do, and what are they prepared to give up, to achieve it?
We don’t have to give up anything. Airlines should hire the best person for the job. Full stop. As has been said before, things to address the lack of diversity needs to be done at the grass routes level, not in discriminatory hiring practices at airlines. Things like promoting aviation as a viable career for anyone in high schools for example. My wife is an airline pilot and has had a very successful career. She doesn’t use avcanada but I managed to get her to read some of this thread. She found it quite amusing. If a young girl or person of a visible minority feel they can’t work in aviation that is an indication of poor parenting not poor hiring policies.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:37 pm These are all things that many industries agree are less acceptable to women than men.
That is not an answer. It simply pushes the question down the road, so let me ask it. Why are they less acceptable to women?
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:37 pm On a population level I can think of several things that keep women from Aviation and similarly trucking. Long hours, lack of home life, inflexible schedules, benefits, low starting wage. These are all things that many industries agree are less acceptable to women than men. The difference here is Trucking is attempting to attract women by making the job more appealing. Aviation is trying to, for lack of a better word, bribe women to join so they can increase the pilot supply so they don’t have to make working conditions better.
(emphasis mine)

Please, if you're going to argue his point, at least mention his whole point. He answered your question before you asked it, methinks.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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ant_321 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:49 pm. If a young girl or person of a visible minority feel they can’t work in aviation that is an indication of poor parenting not poor hiring policies.
I think that’s the first time I’ve heard that it’s the parents of an under-represented group that are actually to blame, so kudos to your wife for the originality of that.
Things like promoting aviation as a viable career for anyone in high schools for example.
don’t you think it lacks credibility to tell girls in school that hey can be airline pilots, when so few women are airline pilots?

The first question on any intelligent girls lips is going to be “if it’s such a good career for women, why are all airline pilots in fact men?”

Are you going to tell her it’s because of her hormones?
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:56 pm
photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:37 pm These are all things that many industries agree are less acceptable to women than men.
That is not an answer. It simply pushes the question down the road, so let me ask it. Why are they less acceptable to women?
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:37 pm On a population level I can think of several things that keep women from Aviation and similarly trucking. Long hours, lack of home life, inflexible schedules, benefits, low starting wage. These are all things that many industries agree are less acceptable to women than men. The difference here is Trucking is attempting to attract women by making the job more appealing. Aviation is trying to, for lack of a better word, bribe women to join so they can increase the pilot supply so they don’t have to make working conditions better.
(emphasis mine)

Please, if you're going to argue his point, at least mention his whole point. He answered your question before you asked it, methinks.
No, no he didn’t. Those unattractive features are just as unattractive to men as to women. Men like a low starting wage, and women dont? Men enjoy a lack of home life? Not any men that I know. Do you?

The question is why should women be put off more by those things than men are, and he didn’t answer that. There’s no reason why those factors should dissuade women any more than they should dissuade men.
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Last edited by photofly on Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:59 pm No, no he didn’t. Those unattractive features are just as unattractive to men as to women. Men like a low starting wage, and women dont? Men enjoy a lack of home life? Not any men that I know. Do you?

The question is why should women be put off more by those things than men are, and he didn’t answer that.
I think that they are more put off by that. What I don't understand is why, and it is a valid question.

[edit]I would very much appreciate more female perspectives on this argument[/edit]
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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I think you might find that more women would care to put up with the strictures of being a junior pilot if they had more role models of successful women senior pilots.

Are you going to tell me that people with dark skin find a low starting salary more unattractive than white people? Or that Black people have a higher regard for home life and that’s why Black people are under-represented in the flight deck?
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:37 pm These are all things that many industries agree are less acceptable to women than men.
That is not an answer. It simply pushes the question down the road, so let me ask it. Why are they less acceptable to women?
A very easy answer for me to post for you:

You have to love flying, because you start off getting paid horribly and you are gone a lot, and I don't know if that's desirable to a lot of women.

I suppose if the job were just concerned with flying, there would be a lot more women.

requires lots of expensive and continuous training, takes them away from home for large chunks of time and makes it difficult to raise a family.

if the job were just concerned with flying, there would be a lot more women. But the job isn't just flying, it's wrapped up in a whole lot of other unappealing circumstances, unappealing especially to women who may not have the drive, ambition, financial means or the family/network support to pursue flying as a career.

Flying has to be something that you really, really want, because even gender issues aside, it's a very challenging and demanding career.


You see Photofly, it is very simple. Do you honestly believe that this is somehow biased?
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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photofly wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:10 pm I think you might find that more women would care to put up with the strictures of being a junior pilot if they had more role models of successful women senior pilots.

Are you going to tell me that people with dark skin find a low starting salary more unattractive than white people? Or that Black people have a higher regard for home life and that’s why Black people are under-represented in the flight deck?
No, I am agreeing that they lack role models, and that therefore aviation lacks diversity.

Believe you me, as a middle aged white man, I have no problem in finding older, richer white men as mentors. This would be very difficult if I were poor and hailed from a minority population.

* invokes the only Female Aviator who has a household name, and you all know who she is.
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

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Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:12 pm ... unappealing especially to women who may not have [as much of] the drive, ambition, financial means or the family/network support [that men have] to pursue flying as a career.
....
You see Photofly, it is very simple. Do you honestly believe that this is somehow biased?
You really can’t help yourself, can you?
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Re: United Airlines hiring goals

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Dh8Classic wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:12 pm You see Photofly, it is very simple. Do you honestly believe that this is somehow biased?
Of course it's biased. What we're arguing over is why and how.
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