AME shortage?

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RLK
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by RLK »

Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:35 pm
RLK wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:51 am You can make as much working at a car dealership and work weekdays vs. nights, holidays and weekends.
Automotive dealerships pay their technicians on flat rate (piece work). Or better known at flat rape. Automotive technology has been outpacing technician education for many years now. If you do not have many years of experience on automotive systems you are going to starve in flat rate, and many do. They guy in the bay next to you will slit your throat over a 0.2 hour oil change.
For the ones that say fixing cars pays better that aircraft are sadly mistaken.
Depends on where RLK, I haven’t been in a flat rate shop in quite some time heavy duty is hourly but there is a suggested menu price. Automotive rates were forever listed and near mirrored by Mitchell but I think it’s gone much skinnier than those jobs. It is on an upswing if you look where wages are for auto mechanics crocs Canada it’s going way up.
The dealer uses the manufacturers labor rate, then you have Mitchell, all data, chitlen, motor and probably a few others. And they are all different. Back in the crash of 2008, manufacturers slashed labor rates to reduce their warranty costs, and then they just stayed low. So dealers may be offering $45 an hour but you are not really making that when it takes you 5 hours to do an apparently 2 hour job. The deck of cards is always stacked against you in flat rate.

Every technician that I have meet that chases money is just miserable. I have accepted the fact that I will always be under paid, but in 20 years of fixing cars I have never had to worry about losing my job or had to pay anyone to fix something for me.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

RLK wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:36 pm
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:35 pm
RLK wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 pm

Automotive dealerships pay their technicians on flat rate (piece work). Or better known at flat rape. Automotive technology has been outpacing technician education for many years now. If you do not have many years of experience on automotive systems you are going to starve in flat rate, and many do. They guy in the bay next to you will slit your throat over a 0.2 hour oil change.
For the ones that say fixing cars pays better that aircraft are sadly mistaken.
Depends on where RLK, I haven’t been in a flat rate shop in quite some time heavy duty is hourly but there is a suggested menu price. Automotive rates were forever listed and near mirrored by Mitchell but I think it’s gone much skinnier than those jobs. It is on an upswing if you look where wages are for auto mechanics crocs Canada it’s going way up.
The dealer uses the manufacturers labor rate, then you have Mitchell, all data, chitlen, motor and probably a few others. And they are all different. Back in the crash of 2008, manufacturers slashed labor rates to reduce their warranty costs, and then they just stayed low. So dealers may be offering $45 an hour but you are not really making that when it takes you 5 hours to do an apparently 2 hour job. The deck of cards is always stacked against you in flat rate.

Every technician that I have meet that chases money is just miserable. I have accepted the fact that I will always be under paid, but in 20 years of fixing cars I have never had to worry about losing my job or had to pay anyone to fix something for me.

Yep you got it. Flat rate certainly sucks and I agree on the rates you’ve cited 💯. It is on an upswing in western Canada for rates much higher than you’re talking. I’m heavy duty is seeing that too just not near as much in automotive. You’ll never be out of work fixing stuff with wheels that’s for certain.
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Heliian
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by Heliian »

I just heard an ad on the radio for auto mechanics at a major dealership. Licensed start at $35/hr. Meh.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Heliian wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:07 am I just heard an ad on the radio for auto mechanics at a major dealership. Licensed start at $35/hr. Meh.
Depends on where, the wages I’ve seen have a huge margin across the board. I also saw an add for a multi endorsed M1/M2 AME for a helicopter operator this spring for $200/day….
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PitchLink
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by PitchLink »

Heliian wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:07 am I just heard an ad on the radio for auto mechanics at a major dealership. Licensed start at $35/hr. Meh.
Still more than the losers in Canada’s market are offering on the regular.
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SeptRepair
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by SeptRepair »

I was in the lower mainland a couple days ago doing some running around with a buddy stopping in at various helicopter companies. One place the owner was expressing his concern with the lack of being able to find a good licensed structures guy. My buddy knowing I'm a licensed structures guy, threw me under the bus saying "hey he is one!" Immediately I had a job offer. lol. Im not looking, but the conversation went on about apparently all the schools who offer structures courses have stopped running the program? This guy was adamant that BCIT, SAIT and a couple others don't offer it currently. I checked the only local school here on the island and it has a TBD date on the next course. You guys out there hearing the same thing?
Anyways, No sooner do I get home and ironically my email starts filling up with contract agencies looking for structures guys. The going rate currently, for a licensed guy is 45/hr. Keep in mind this is for east coast work, and the travel and accommodation is severely lacking in terms of compensation. Couple months back it was insulting at 32/hr. If this guy I was talking too is correct, then there is going to be a severe shortage of licensed S guys soon. I know M1&M2 combined give you the privilege of signing out S work if you can demonstrate competency in the eyes of transport, but it doesn't give you the actual skill to do the work. I would hate to be a company owner the next little while if I'm trying to attract good talent.
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digits_
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by digits_ »

SeptRepair wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:26 am I was in the lower mainland a couple days ago doing some running around with a buddy stopping in at various helicopter companies. One place the owner was expressing his concern with the lack of being able to find a good licensed structures guy. My buddy knowing I'm a licensed structures guy, threw me under the bus saying "hey he is one!" Immediately I had a job offer. lol. Im not looking, but the conversation went on about apparently all the schools who offer structures courses have stopped running the program? This guy was adamant that BCIT, SAIT and a couple others don't offer it currently. I checked the only local school here on the island and it has a TBD date on the next course. You guys out there hearing the same thing?
Anyways, No sooner do I get home and ironically my email starts filling up with contract agencies looking for structures guys. The going rate currently, for a licensed guy is 45/hr. Keep in mind this is for east coast work, and the travel and accommodation is severely lacking in terms of compensation. Couple months back it was insulting at 32/hr. If this guy I was talking too is correct, then there is going to be a severe shortage of licensed S guys soon. I know M1&M2 combined give you the privilege of signing out S work if you can demonstrate competency in the eyes of transport, but it doesn't give you the actual skill to do the work. I would hate to be a company owner the next little while if I'm trying to attract good talent.
The rumour was that 5 years ago there were only 2 avionics AMEs in Manitoba. Seems like every so many years a certain type of AME seems to disappear from the market in a certain province.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

SeptRepair wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:26 am I was in the lower mainland a couple days ago doing some running around with a buddy stopping in at various helicopter companies. One place the owner was expressing his concern with the lack of being able to find a good licensed structures guy. My buddy knowing I'm a licensed structures guy, threw me under the bus saying "hey he is one!" Immediately I had a job offer. lol. Im not looking, but the conversation went on about apparently all the schools who offer structures courses have stopped running the program? This guy was adamant that BCIT, SAIT and a couple others don't offer it currently. I checked the only local school here on the island and it has a TBD date on the next course. You guys out there hearing the same thing?
Anyways, No sooner do I get home and ironically my email starts filling up with contract agencies looking for structures guys. The going rate currently, for a licensed guy is 45/hr. Keep in mind this is for east coast work, and the travel and accommodation is severely lacking in terms of compensation. Couple months back it was insulting at 32/hr. If this guy I was talking too is correct, then there is going to be a severe shortage of licensed S guys soon. I know M1&M2 combined give you the privilege of signing out S work if you can demonstrate competency in the eyes of transport, but it doesn't give you the actual skill to do the work. I would hate to be a company owner the next little while if I'm trying to attract good talent.
Supply and demand. No work equates to no demand which eventually causes a drought in new personnel. Attendance numbers for the M E and S programs have been down for upwards of 10 years now. I’m not surprised to hear about the S program you’ve cited, you can’t run a class with 2 students.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

SeptRepair wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:26 am I was in the lower mainland a couple days ago doing some running around with a buddy stopping in at various helicopter companies. One place the owner was expressing his concern with the lack of being able to find a good licensed structures guy. My buddy knowing I'm a licensed structures guy, threw me under the bus saying "hey he is one!" Immediately I had a job offer. lol. Im not looking, but the conversation went on about apparently all the schools who offer structures courses have stopped running the program? This guy was adamant that BCIT, SAIT and a couple others don't offer it currently. I checked the only local school here on the island and it has a TBD date on the next course. You guys out there hearing the same thing?
Anyways, No sooner do I get home and ironically my email starts filling up with contract agencies looking for structures guys. The going rate currently, for a licensed guy is 45/hr. Keep in mind this is for east coast work, and the travel and accommodation is severely lacking in terms of compensation. Couple months back it was insulting at 32/hr. If this guy I was talking too is correct, then there is going to be a severe shortage of licensed S guys soon. I know M1&M2 combined give you the privilege of signing out S work if you can demonstrate competency in the eyes of transport, but it doesn't give you the actual skill to do the work. I would hate to be a company owner the next little while if I'm trying to attract good talent.
$45/hr is grossly low let along 32, industry has only to look at themselves for the lack of licenses willing to work. There’s tons of guys out there, just won’t work for that garbage rate.
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PitchLink
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by PitchLink »

SeptRepair wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:26 am I was in the lower mainland a couple days ago doing some running around with a buddy stopping in at various helicopter companies. One place the owner was expressing his concern with the lack of being able to find a good licensed structures guy. My buddy knowing I'm a licensed structures guy, threw me under the bus saying "hey he is one!" Immediately I had a job offer. lol. Im not looking, but the conversation went on about apparently all the schools who offer structures courses have stopped running the program? This guy was adamant that BCIT, SAIT and a couple others don't offer it currently. I checked the only local school here on the island and it has a TBD date on the next course. You guys out there hearing the same thing?
Anyways, No sooner do I get home and ironically my email starts filling up with contract agencies looking for structures guys. The going rate currently, for a licensed guy is 45/hr. Keep in mind this is for east coast work, and the travel and accommodation is severely lacking in terms of compensation. Couple months back it was insulting at 32/hr. If this guy I was talking too is correct, then there is going to be a severe shortage of licensed S guys soon. I know M1&M2 combined give you the privilege of signing out S work if you can demonstrate competency in the eyes of transport, but it doesn't give you the actual skill to do the work. I would hate to be a company owner the next little while if I'm trying to attract good talent.
Proving competency for S or E privileges requires the basic training requirements if I’m not mistaken plus a filled logbook for said additional rating. I could be wrong it’s been a while since I’ve looked at that.
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helicopterray
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by helicopterray »

If you have an M1 and M2, you automatically are covered for all AME tasks. There are no further endorsements that you need for S or E.
An AMO, however, will have to prove you are qualified to perform structures or Avionics work for them.
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PitchLink
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by PitchLink »

helicopterray wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:23 pm If you have an M1 and M2, you automatically are covered for all AME tasks. There are no further endorsements that you need for S or E.
An AMO, however, will have to prove you are qualified to perform structures or Avionics work for them.
Yes you can only have two ratings on your license, the last I looked into this you can sign for all NON specialized E and S work and that is where it gets muddy. If memory serves the definitions in the cars of specialty maintenance for different departments (E&S) are pretty lengthy and specific. There is also the training requirements that need to be met where aforementioned you are “qualified” to do the work. This discussion many moons ago when I looked into it equates to you needing the schooling and the training “12 months per additional rating”. Again that’s for SPECIALIZED E&S work. I’ll have to revisit this and get back to this thread. Non specialized E & S is further covered in most manufacturer’s CH 20, it’s a bit of a red herring especially in the helicopter world.
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rigpiggy
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by rigpiggy »

Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:08 pm
Heliian wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:07 am I just heard an ad on the radio for auto mechanics at a major dealership. Licensed start at $35/hr. Meh.
Depends on where, the wages I’ve seen have a huge margin across the board. I also saw an add for a multi endorsed M1/M2 AME for a helicopter operator this spring for $200/day….
200/12 16.66/hr huge pay.........
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PitchLink
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by PitchLink »

rigpiggy wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:59 pm
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:08 pm
Heliian wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:07 am I just heard an ad on the radio for auto mechanics at a major dealership. Licensed start at $35/hr. Meh.
Depends on where, the wages I’ve seen have a huge margin across the board. I also saw an add for a multi endorsed M1/M2 AME for a helicopter operator this spring for $200/day….
200/12 16.66/hr huge pay.........
It’s disgusting dude
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SeptRepair
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by SeptRepair »

helicopterray wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:23 pm If you have an M1 and M2, you automatically are covered for all AME tasks. There are no further endorsements that you need for S or E.
An AMO, however, will have to prove you are qualified to perform structures or Avionics work for them.
I guess that is the kicker here, the AMO which has the Structures rating needs to have that skilled person regardless if anybody has an S license. I looked into the situation a bit further ( emailed the school) and the reason the Structures programs are not currently available is due to lack of interest and enrollments numbers. Cant blame people really for not wanting to take the course to only come out and start at 17/hr.
As for the M programs, I also looked into the numbers at BCIT and they have information that pretty much cements the idea of why getting into aircraft maintenance is a lost cause. https://www.bcit.ca/files/ir/gp/1010dipma.pdf In summary, with just over half of the total number of students who bothered to take the survey the consensus was you can expect to make 20/hr to start as a fresh apprentice. These numbers are for the 2017,2018, and 2019 years. I couldn't imagine what the 2020, 2021 numbers are going to look like!!
To keep life in perspective, my daughter this summer, age 16, worked as a waitress and was grossing 400/day including tips on an 8 hr shift!! I had the conversation with her how the money she is making is not a norm, that you need an education to make that in the real world. She fortunately believes me and is still focused on post secondary education ( Wants to be an airline pilot . FML), but deep down i feel like telling her @#$! schooling and keep waitressing till your 40. It has taken dad 35 years in the aircraft industry to make that kind of money.
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PitchLink
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by PitchLink »

SeptRepair wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:25 am
helicopterray wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:23 pm If you have an M1 and M2, you automatically are covered for all AME tasks. There are no further endorsements that you need for S or E.
An AMO, however, will have to prove you are qualified to perform structures or Avionics work for them.
I guess that is the kicker here, the AMO which has the Structures rating needs to have that skilled person regardless if anybody has an S license. I looked into the situation a bit further ( emailed the school) and the reason the Structures programs are not currently available is due to lack of interest and enrollments numbers. Cant blame people really for not wanting to take the course to only come out and start at 17/hr.
As for the M programs, I also looked into the numbers at BCIT and they have information that pretty much cements the idea of why getting into aircraft maintenance is a lost cause. https://www.bcit.ca/files/ir/gp/1010dipma.pdf In summary, with just over half of the total number of students who bothered to take the survey the consensus was you can expect to make 20/hr to start as a fresh apprentice. These numbers are for the 2017,2018, and 2019 years. I couldn't imagine what the 2020, 2021 numbers are going to look like!!
To keep life in perspective, my daughter this summer, age 16, worked as a waitress and was grossing 400/day including tips on an 8 hr shift!! I had the conversation with her how the money she is making is not a norm, that you need an education to make that in the real world. She fortunately believes me and is still focused on post secondary education ( Wants to be an airline pilot . FML), but deep down i feel like telling her @#$! schooling and keep waitressing till your 40. It has taken dad 35 years in the aircraft industry to make that kind of money.
Pretty sad isn’t it….
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hithere
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by hithere »

Yet if you look at the survey, despite the low pay rate people seem happy with the program and work they are doing upon graduation....
Very similar to pilots who, despite having paid, on average, at least 4X the cost for their licences, still agree to start off instructing or up north throwing bags for minimum wage. AME graduates make more money than pilot graduates until at least a pilot's first Captaincy at a regional. That sometimes takes 4-6 years from Commercial pilot licence graduation and AMEs do not have nearly the amount of student debt that pilots do
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PitchLink
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by PitchLink »

hithere wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:27 pm Yet if you look at the survey, despite the low pay rate people seem happy with the program and work they are doing upon graduation....
Very similar to pilots who, despite having paid, on average, at least 4X the cost for their licences, still agree to start off instructing or up north throwing bags for minimum wage. AME graduates make more money than pilot graduates until at least a pilot's first Captaincy at a regional. That sometimes takes 4-6 years from Commercial pilot licence graduation and AMEs do not have nearly the amount of student debt that pilots do
Depending on where and what you go to fly and fix. Pilots have the initial cost of the license (bout 100k give or take) but they don’t have to continually buy tools the rest of their career, it doesn’t take long to have $60k in tools from graduation which is also an investment in an ame’s career. I guess the helmet and iPads do need to be replaced often enough in rotary. Idk they’re both expensive enough for initial cost and paying dues for crap wages.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

digits_ wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:19 am I'm surprised any AME is still working in the industry with the kind of schedule most of them have...
It’s bad, lots only doing enough to stay current in Canada…
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chowda
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Re: AME shortage?

Post by chowda »

SeptRepair wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:25 am
helicopterray wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:23 pm If you have an M1 and M2, you automatically are covered for all AME tasks. There are no further endorsements that you need for S or E.
An AMO, however, will have to prove you are qualified to perform structures or Avionics work for them.
I guess that is the kicker here, the AMO which has the Structures rating needs to have that skilled person regardless if anybody has an S license. I looked into the situation a bit further ( emailed the school) and the reason the Structures programs are not currently available is due to lack of interest and enrollments numbers. Cant blame people really for not wanting to take the course to only come out and start at 17/hr.
As for the M programs, I also looked into the numbers at BCIT and they have information that pretty much cements the idea of why getting into aircraft maintenance is a lost cause. https://www.bcit.ca/files/ir/gp/1010dipma.pdf In summary, with just over half of the total number of students who bothered to take the survey the consensus was you can expect to make 20/hr to start as a fresh apprentice. These numbers are for the 2017,2018, and 2019 years. I couldn't imagine what the 2020, 2021 numbers are going to look like!!
To keep life in perspective, my daughter this summer, age 16, worked as a waitress and was grossing 400/day including tips on an 8 hr shift!! I had the conversation with her how the money she is making is not a norm, that you need an education to make that in the real world. She fortunately believes me and is still focused on post secondary education ( Wants to be an airline pilot . FML), but deep down i feel like telling her @#$! schooling and keep waitressing till your 40. It has taken dad 35 years in the aircraft industry to make that kind of money.
I see many of the common fast food franchises advertising on their sign boards "FT $17.50 an hour" in Kelowna. They still cant find bodies.
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