Hmmmmmm

[PitchLink]

There needs to be regulation on all rates in this industry, this is insanity what’s happening these days.

There are regulations, they are called employment standards and apply across the board, to everybody in all industries. Some industries are subject to the federal standards, others to provincial, which can vary somewhat from province to province.

I'm curious, are you suggesting that this industry is somehow special, and should get preferential treatment over all others for some reason ? I'd be real curious to know what the reason is. What makes these folks so special that they need rules over and above what applies to the rest of the population ?

Well if you read earlier in the thread, provincially regulated trades have wage protection unlike this industry. A couple bucks more than minimum wage is grossly low, and the fact that someone would defend that metric is concerning. I’m
Well aware of labour law, there is no special treatment being suggested in anything posted. The fact is simple, supply and demand, and right now it’s an employers market as usual. You won’t see any other profession starting wage that low with comparable training. It’ll hit closer to minimum wage I’m sure as this market continues. It’s legal, but it’s not ethical, that’s what I think, and I’m sure I’m not alone.

[ayseven]

More than unethical, it is immoral. But that is this industry and at least people are openly talking about it.

[PitchLink]

More than unethical, it is immoral. But that is this industry and at least people are openly talking about it.

As they should. And yes I agree, it’s abhorrent.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What do you expect, it's an entry level job.

You paid for your CPL and now you need a job to gain experience. How much should we pay a zero timer with no skills?

It's like this everywhere now with most industries, everyone wants top dollar for nothing, entitled whiners. That's not how the world actually works, you need to earn a living, get experience and prove yourself valuable.

So obtaining a CPL is zero time and zero skill? I think TC and several others with the aforementioned license and training would disagree with you. I don’t think anyone speaking out against these obviously low (bordering on insulting) wages are wanting “top dollar” as you put it, I think they’re concerned with how wages in Canada are not only stagnating, but retracting as time goes on (I can confirm that fact with my time and experience in Canada).
Yes people need to slug it out in any profession and “prove yourself valuable”, that’s life, but as others have pointed out, the starting wages are “grossly low”, I don’t remember flying a comparable position for that rate 20 plus years ago…

[Bug_Stomper_01]

What do you expect, it's an entry level job.

You paid for your CPL and now you need a job to gain experience. How much should we pay a zero timer with no skills?

This.

I don’t get why this is so hard for anyone to understand. Having a freshly minted pilots license doesn’t make one a pilot, just places one in a (disgusting) larvae like state between a student and a fully productive individual, much like new MBA’s.

New mba’s make a hare more than $20/hr in a non safety sensitive environment

Quite a bit more actually, and good point!

[Bug_Stomper_01]

[/quote]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

[/quote]

The old it’s better than welfare argument, I love that argument, really looks good on Canada's industry, real feather in the cap I must say. I wonder if any other trade makes that assertion, wait I’ll check…. NOPE! But, YOU GET TO FLY!!!

[FlightInstructionGTA]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

[PitchLink]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

I think the person that said “what do you expect it’s an entry level job” is probably an AME. Probably a partner or part owner for some flight school / operator in western Canada. This person’s “logic” isn’t flawed, it’s diseased like the rest of the older aerosexuals in Canada keeping things as crap as they are and making things exponentially worse every day they’re still involved.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

I think the person that said “what do you expect it’s an entry level job” is probably an AME. Probably a partner or part owner for some flight school / operator in western Canada. This person’s “logic” isn’t flawed, it’s diseased like the rest of the older aerosexuals in Canada keeping things as crap as they are and making things exponentially worse every day they’re still involved.

Oh come on things aren’t that bad

[PitchLink]

As always, there's plenty of other work out there if you don't like it. Heck, live on the dole the rest of your life, that's a real moneymaker

At least we can see than the majority of pilots agree that wages in Canada are low. And for the one who are saying that we are a bunch of whiners. It is partly because of this kind of mentality that wages are not increasing because you are devaluating our work.

You say it is easy. I dont know where you worked. But the job I have done in aviation were not "easy" I did some not related aviation job way easier than Piloting an Aircraft. Or maybe you did not work up north. Where you re on call and it is - 40 or less. I am not saying I did not like it. I am saying it is not "easy" as you said.

I know a bunch of people who are not in the aviation field and who will never do that for anything in the world.

Also the level of responsability as a Captain is far more than an heavy machinerie enginneer.

To come back on devaluating our profession. A good example is the ex VP of Air Canada who is now at Air France. As he was a VP at Air Canada he created Air Canada Rouge. Lower the FA wages. As the Airline industry hit profit records. We kept the 4 years flat pay at AC, Give some shitty contract to Sky Reg and jazz etc. As they were recording profit record!!
When he came to Air France, Pilots, FA and AME had demands to improve their working conditions. If he was not able to meet them, they were all going on strike. Ben Smith did his maths and saw the company would lose more money if they go on strike than accepting their demand. So He decided to accept them all. To avoid a strike.
He clearly state that Pilot were very respected and he recognized their skills as technical Personnal Inflight. I m not sure he ever say that about Air Canada pilots...

2 Differents company, Same leader but different unions and Coworkers who sticked together to get what they wanted because they value their work.

When you think your job does not worth that much. The Management takes a good note on this. Even as A FO when you start your carreer.
If you begin at 20$/an hour as a green FO it is stilll way too low because when you will be on your years 4th you will not be a young FO anymore. You would be a legitimate senior FO ready to go left seat but the wages would still be way too low because you started super low.
you would get paid 35 - 40$/ hour for a 4 years Dash 8 FO. It is very low. So this wages, even as a starter is way too low because their is no increases with experiences.

As an industry we need to stick together and not have this poor mentality. We need to value our work as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as FA and AME.
Saying that in the old days you had to pay for your own ppc and paid a shitty wages for years so we should stopped whinning and suck it up is not an argument. And I Have 2 questions for you. Did you enjoy your past situation? did you enjoy paying for your ppc and earning a low wages? And because you suffer from it, Why would other would have to suffer from the same things?
Your logic is completly flawed and is not making us progress on better conditions.

Fly safe! Cheers

I think the person that said “what do you expect it’s an entry level job” is probably an AME. Probably a partner or part owner for some flight school / operator in western Canada. This person’s “logic” isn’t flawed, it’s diseased like the rest of the older aerosexuals in Canada keeping things as crap as they are and making things exponentially worse every day they’re still involved.

Oh come on things aren’t that bad

I’m sure I know who this guy is.

[foxforce5]

This is unbelievably scary. And very, very sad. But there's always that pilot.... trying to get out of that C-152....

[vanislepilot]

Sheesh, 20 dollars an hour to fly a Dash 8. There are many King Air jobs that pay better than that. Also, how is right seating on a 705 machine an entry level job? What does that make right seating at a 703? Or flying survey? Or all the other positions we take to get experience?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Sheesh, 20 dollars an hour to fly a Dash 8. There are many King Air jobs that pay better than that. Also, how is right seating on a 705 machine an entry level job? What does that make right seating at a 703? Or flying survey? Or all the other positions we take to get experience?

Exactly, it’s not an “entry level job” as one of the aerosexuals put it earlier. It takes a ton of training and personal investment to get to that level.

[TailwheelPilot]

I think the point was that the pay is poor for anything but an entry level position.

Right seat in a Q400, ATR, 737, or A320 in many places is an entry level job.

Success is not defined by how big of a plane you fly.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I think the point was that the pay is poor for anything but an entry level position.

Right seat in a Q400, ATR, 737, or A320 in many places is an entry level job.

Success is not defined by how big of a plane you fly.

It’s low for even an entry level job

[schnitzel2k3]

I think the point was that the pay is poor for anything but an entry level position.

Right seat in a Q400, ATR, 737, or A320 in many places is an entry level job.

Success is not defined by how big of a plane you fly.

It’s low for even an entry level job

I've always maintained that the wages in a market are defined by the best available opportunity and trickle down from there. Air Canada is regarded as the creme de la creme of opportunities and look at what a mess their agreement and union is in. When AC is paying between 52-95k for the first four years (excluding draft and upgrades), well you can't expect other airlines - especially feeders for said airline - to pick up the WAWCON torch.

Some advocates point the fingers at Westjet - but let's be honest, Westjet is not on par with any other international legacy carrier, including the company it was modeled after, Southwest. You don't see Delta stressing or blaming Southwest when it comes time for negotiations.

Once ACPA and their membership come together and correct their trajectory, we should see significant strides in the Canadian industry.

[rookiepilot]

I thought flying was such an amazing job the pay didn't matter. That's what the troll Crashing into the Trees is trying to tell me.

Life is full of choices, I say. I chose the unemployable degenerate route.

[tsgarp]

Want the type rating and the experience? Want to go to Air Canada? Then fucking do it and smile the whole time. Don't "want to"? Someone else gets your seat at Jazz etc etc
It is a sorry state of affairs but that is the industry. Low margins, lots of staff available. What do people want? Respect? Good pay on your way to the top? Ain't gonna happen.

What are Porter and Encore paying their FOs?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I think the point was that the pay is poor for anything but an entry level position.

Right seat in a Q400, ATR, 737, or A320 in many places is an entry level job.

Success is not defined by how big of a plane you fly.

It’s low for even an entry level job

I've always maintained that the wages in a market are defined by the best available opportunity and trickle down from there. Air Canada is regarded as the creme de la creme of opportunities and look at what a mess their agreement and union is in. When AC is paying between 52-95k for the first four years (excluding draft and upgrades), well you can't expect other airlines - especially feeders for said airline - to pick up the WAWCON torch.

Some advocates point the fingers at Westjet - but let's be honest, Westjet is not on par with any other international legacy carrier, including the company it was modeled after, Southwest. You don't see Delta stressing or blaming Southwest when it comes time for negotiations.

Once ACPA and their membership come together and correct their trajectory, we should see significant strides in the Canadian industry.

I just heard another friend of mine is moving states side due to the industry here in Canada. The wages and working conditions are a joke. Air Canada has a plethora of problems, lots of ex united guys still there? Idk man it reminds me a lot of discovery air. But supply and demand I guess, I think our generation and younger are seeing how bunk this industry is and only regarding flight as a a pastime not a steady job. The stats are published on TC’s website and speak for themselves. I would be very surprised if N registered equipment didn’t start picking up scheds in Canada soon…

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/licens ... statistics

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I thought flying was such an amazing job the pay didn't matter. That's what the troll Crashing into the Trees is trying to tell me.

Life is full of choices, I say. I chose the unemployable degenerate route.

Asking for reasonable remuneration, schedule, and benefits is a sure fire way to be unemployable in Canada lol