Encore Hiring 250 hrs

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Bede
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Bede »

Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
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marlakai
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by marlakai »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
:roll:
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Cavalier44
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Cavalier44 »

marlakai wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:44 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
:roll:
Why are you rolling your eyes? He's right. As long as airlines are able to take 250-hour pilots out of flight schools and put them into the right seat of transport category aircraft, wages and working conditions will remain suppressed in this country.

Even if you take experience out of the equation, at 250 hours, these pilots are just happy to be there - they're not willing to rock the boat and advocate for better conditions for themselves and their colleagues. They know that they're expendable and the company can easily replace them with another 250-hour wonder if they're not complacent with the status quo.

By the time you've reached 1500 hours flying a Twin Otter or King Air or Navajo, if you're not one of those contemptible "I do it because I'm passionate about the job, I'd fly for free" types, you've likely at least busted your ass for long enough to learn the value of your labour.

Sadly, I have no optimism that any such rule will be put in place here, not even if someone pulls a Colgan and puts a Q400 nose-first into someone's living room. The airline lobby has too much influence with the powers that be, and our pilots are too disunited to collectively advocate for change. Transport Canada is a shadow of its former self and can barely regulate the industry as it exists today, let alone implement new safety regulations. Look how long the new duty regs took to develop and how much of a shambles their introduction has been. Already airlines are seeking and receiving exemptions to sections of the duty regs that they find inconvenient to them - a 1500 hour minimum requirement would be no different.
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Last edited by Cavalier44 on Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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‘Bob’
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by ‘Bob’ »

marlakai wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:44 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
:roll:
Let me guess. You’re rolling your eyes because of a number between 250 and 1499 that has meaning to you.

Because it sure couldn’t be about anything else.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by lownslow »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US.
While I agree, there’s only one way we’re getting that rule and I’m not looking forward to it.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
Agreed!
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Can Pilot
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Can Pilot »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
+1

It would be a great thing to see in Canada.
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digits_
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by digits_ »

Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
But it's terrible for the pilots working at the smaller operators... Even less leverage for safety or wage improvements...
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by JeppsOnFire »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:00 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
But it's terrible for the pilots working at the smaller operators... Even less leverage for safety or wage improvements...
Possibly. Although I don’t think there has ever been a time when a 250hr pilot had any leverage. Ever.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by OneYonge »

Can Pilot wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:58 am
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
+1

It would be a great thing to see in Canada.
That's just artificially creating a shortage.

If you have more airplanes/flights than there are viable pilots around, you'd just have to get rid of some planes...because the pilots have priced themselves out of the market. Less revenue and opportunity for everyone.

Basic demand/supply and free market already controls all of this already, unless there is a good reason for the regulators to come in.
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digits_
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by digits_ »

JeppsOnFire wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:03 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:00 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
But it's terrible for the pilots working at the smaller operators... Even less leverage for safety or wage improvements...
Possibly. Although I don’t think there has ever been a time when a 250hr pilot had any leverage. Ever.
No, but 1000 hour pilots sure did the last couple of years before covid.
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Bede
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Bede »

OneYonge wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:17 pm
That's just artificially creating a shortage.
Well yes, but with the protection of the public in mind.

Why do you think that the CCFP and RCPSC won't accredit private medical schools? Same goes for law schools. It's in their interest to ensure that only the best get to play.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Float_lover »

In Europe, there barely have any regional business as we know, most of the pilots start on 320 and they don't have more accidents than us.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by goldeneagle »

Cavalier44 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:55 pm
marlakai wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:44 pm
Bede wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:54 pm Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
:roll:
Why are you rolling your eyes? He's right. As long as airlines are able to take 250-hour pilots out of flight schools and put them into the right seat of transport category aircraft, wages and working conditions will remain suppressed in this country.
Ah yes, free market is good, government intervention / control is bad, except it would be good to have some form of artificial government regulation that increases pilot wages. Even better if you can somehow wrap it up disguised as a 'safety' thing.

Wages in the industry will go up just as soon as folks stop taking jobs at the offered rate. As long as there are more willing applicants than there are jobs, there is absolutely no reason for the wage to increase.

If you think the wages are to low, but you took the job anyways, you ARE the problem, not the solution.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The barrier to entry in the US is hours. The barrier to entry in Europe is money to pay for the very expensive training ( approximately $200,000 CAD for zero to airline hire) mandated by the regulators. Either way government policy has created the situation.

The incident/accident rate in the EU is definitely a bit higher in the EU but it is hard to get an apples to apples comparison. Personally I believe that you can't train experience, particularly when you have to make inflight decisions without anybody else in the airplane to help you, so I think requiring ATPL hours is a good thing.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by twa22 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:20 am The barrier to entry in the US is hours. The barrier to entry in Europe is money to pay for the very expensive training ( approximately $200,000 CAD for zero to airline hire) mandated by the regulators. Either way government policy has created the situation.

The incident/accident rate in the EU is definitely a bit higher in the EU but it is hard to get an apples to apples comparison. Personally I believe that you can't train experience, particularly when you have to make inflight decisions without anybody else in the airplane to help you, so I think requiring ATPL hours is a good thing.
The European Union has a much lower accident rate compared to Canada, per 1 million departures for schecudeled commerical services with aircraft over 5.7 tons

https://www.icao.int/safety/iStars/Page ... stics.aspx

All you need to do is select European Union and Canada in the drop down menu to get the graphs

So no, Europe DEFINIETLY DOES NOT have a higher accident rate...

Also, Canada has a higher accident rate then the world, on average, in the last 11 years according to ICAO stats
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Cavalier44 »

goldeneagle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am Wages in the industry will go up just as soon as folks stop taking jobs at the offered rate. As long as there are more willing applicants than there are jobs, there is absolutely no reason for the wage to increase.
Never going to happen in this country, unfortunately. There are too few barriers to entry. Even with the costs of obtaining a CPL + MIFR going up sharply, financing is readily available, and "puppy mill" flight schools will continually churn out 250-hour pilots as it's good business for them to do so. The number of potential candidates being trained is not tied to the actual demand for new pilots - a surplus has always existed of fresh graduates seeking entry-level jobs, even in 2019 when we were at peak "pilot shortage".

There are two issues with the scenario you're depicting:

The first issue is human nature - many people get into this job because they're passionate about aviation and they love to fly. Unfortunately, for many, their priorities rank "flying airplanes" higher than "earning a living wage". This allows entry-level airlines to offer rock bottom wages because, for every job posting that is created, they receive hundreds if not thousands of applications. Prior to the "pilot shortage", these were northern airlines flying Twin Otters, King Airs, and Metroliners.

Now we have major regional airlines like Encore and Jazz realizing that they can tap into the same pool of ultra-cheap labour by giving new pilots the opportunity to skip that experience entirely. If you have the option of moving to Yellowknife and flying a King Air for $40k/year, or staying at home in Toronto and living in mom and dad's basement flying a Q400 for the same wage, which are you going to pick?

The second issue is economic - it's supply and demand. Demand for experienced pilots will always exist; even during COVID, it hasn't been impossible to find a job if you have the right combination of experience (i.e. transport-category jet PIC) and desirable type ratings (Airbus or Boeing). Demand for inexperienced pilots is low, and you have a large number of 250-hour pilots fighting over a small number of entry-level positions. They can't stop taking jobs at the offered rate even if they wanted to, regardless of whether it's a Q400 or a King Air, because if their peers continue to do so, they'll be the ones out of a job.
goldeneagle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am Ah yes, free market is good, government intervention / control is bad, except it would be good to have some form of artificial government regulation that increases pilot wages. Even better if you can somehow wrap it up disguised as a 'safety' thing.
I don't necessarily buy the argument that government intervention or regulation is, by default, a bad thing - especially given the nature of our industry. With that being said, if it works to pilots' advantage in this country in terms of tipping the supply and demand scale to our advantage, we should seize the opportunity. If wrapping it in the disguise of safety makes it a more appealing sell to the bureaucrats who create the regulations then so be it.
goldeneagle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am If you think the wages are too low, but you took the job anyways, you ARE the problem, not the solution.
Ah, so we agree with each other then. What I'm saying is that people are compelled to take these jobs despite knowing that the wages are too low. Creating new regulations is the simplest way to prevent that from happening.
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

twa22 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:12 am
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:20 am The barrier to entry in the US is hours. The barrier to entry in Europe is money to pay for the very expensive training ( approximately $200,000 CAD for zero to airline hire) mandated by the regulators. Either way government policy has created the situation.

The incident/accident rate in the EU is definitely a bit higher in the EU Personally I believe that you can't train experience, particularly when you have to make inflight decisions without anybody else in the airplane to help you, so I think requiring ATPL hours is a good thing.
The European Union has a much lower accident rate compared to Canada, per 1 million departures for schecudeled commerical services with aircraft over 5.7 tons

https://www.icao.int/safety/iStars/Page ... stics.aspx

All you need to do is select European Union and Canada in the drop down menu to get the graphs

So no, Europe DEFINIETLY DOES NOT have a higher accident rate...

Also, Canada has a higher accident rate then the world, on average, in the last 11 years according to ICAO stats
but it is hard to get an apples to apples comparison.
I learned in my 3rd year University statistics course you can get statistics to show any pretty much any result you want. However I stand by my contention. First I specified accidents and incidents. The only data that matters is the rate per 100,000 hours of flying, not the absolute number. Also only one year of data is not definitive as the overall rate of accidents and incidents by Western airlines is still quite low. The five year trend is a better indication.

From what I can see the data does suggest that EU carriers have a higher rate of tail strikes and heavy landings. This suggests but of course does not prove that pilot skills, or more properly the lack of same, are more prevalent in EU carriers which of course can have very inexperienced FO's.

But again the overall rate for incidents is still low so causation is difficult to prove. On a purely personal subjective observation, my experience is that flight hours does corelate with overall competence and the ability to assess and adapt to what is happening in the airplane. I have also had informal conversations with regional airline Captains who say they have had to fly both sides of the cockpit with very junior FO's, something that did not usually happen in the past when new hires had 4 figure hours

In any case the EU has no choice but to train zero to hero 250 hr guys/gals because the GA 406 and commercial 702/703 sector effectively doesn't exist anymore so there is no way for a new CPL to gain experience in smaller aircraft as is the case in North America
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by Launchpad1 »

Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
I totally agree with you.

My only concern though would be are there enough low time Pilot jobs in Canada to enable enough Pilots to get to 1500 hours to fill the industries needs?

That was a long sentence ^
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Re: Encore Hiring 250 hrs

Post by scdriver »

Launchpad1 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:25 pm
Canada needs a 1500 hour rule like the US. It's good for the regional pilots because less supply means higher wages. It's good for the smaller operators because they can hold on to guys longer. And it's good for the airlines that aren't short sighted because it provides experienced crews.
I totally agree with you.

My only concern though would be are there enough low time Pilot jobs in Canada to enable enough Pilots to get to 1500 hours to fill the industries needs?

That was a long sentence ^
I think a 1500 hr rule would certainly be better for regional pilots, but I think any low time pilots would get boned even harder than they do now. In non covid times there would be more pilots that would’ve been at jazz/encore/etc at smaller operators waiting for that 1500, so even less spots for low timers still with the same supply. Flight schools sure as shit aren’t gonna give out less cpls… And I’d bet wages for 250 hour wonders would go down (if that’s even possible). It’d be a real bottleneck situation long term with regionals desperate for pilots, a shitload of new cpls wanting a job, but only a few seats to build those 1500. No doubt would result in a loooot of 1500 hr instructors in a q400
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