Duty time over 17 hours

[globaltrainer]

So, if you know you are gonna bust 17 hours prior to take off and there's of course a lot of unforseens, is there any provision in the law that allows you to do it?

Say your flying Air Ambulance and the patient is still at the hospital but you know very well by the time he boards the plane you're gonna bust?

I would be grateful of your personal opinion but if you could state something in the law it would be even better


GT

[Cavalier44]

5.35 CAR 700.133(2) – Permitted extension and exceedance
(1) The pilot-in-command may extend the maximum flight duty period by a maximum of 3 hours.

(2) The pilot-in-command may exceed the maximum flight time by a maximum of 3 hours.

(3) The pilot-in-command shall notify the air operator of the length of the extension and the reason for it.

(4) The subsequent rest period must be increased by the amount of the extension to the flight duty period.

4.70 CAR 700.63(2) – Exceeding the extended flight duty period due to further unforeseen operational circumstances
(1) If a pilot-in-command has extended the flight duty period due to unforeseen operational circumstances and after take-off on the final flight, completion of that flight is affected by another unforeseen operational circumstance, the pilot-in-command may, despite the previous subsection, continue the flight to the destination aerodrome or to an alternate aerodrome.

(a) Example:
(i) Assuming a flight crew of two and a maximum flight duty period for the day of 12 hours. The day’s flights are planned to be completed in 11 hours.
(ii) An unforeseen operational circumstance that occurred within 60 minutes of the beginning of the flight duty period, results in a 2.5-hour delay.
(iii) Assuming that the pilot-in-command decides to apply the available extension in subsection (1), the maximum flight duty period will be exceeded by 1.5 hours (with 2 hours permitted).
(iv) Due to weather at the destination (i.e., a second unforeseen operation circumstance), the final flight diverts to an alternate aerodrome that is 1 hour of flight time away.
(v) This will result in a 2.5-hour exceedance of the maximum flight duty period, which is permitted by subsection (2).

The situation that you're describing is not legal as you have already extended your normal maximum flight duty day to 17 hours due to unforeseen operational circumstances. In this situation, if you become aware that you will exceed 17 hours prior to the time that you take off, you must not commence the flight. There is no legal framework to allow you to extend past 17 hours (or the original maximum flight duty day + 3 hours) under any circumstance.

With all that being said, as a responsible Pilot in Command, why would you ever want to do it in the first place? If you're working for an air ambulance operator, they have a responsibility to staff flights appropriately to prevent this kind of scenario from happening. If your passenger/patient hasn't boarded yet and you will exceed your flight duty period, they must make another pilot available to complete the flight. I wouldn't exceed my original maximum flight duty, let alone even consider the possibility of going past 17 hours. What's the good of getting your patient onto the flight only to possibly injure or kill them due to a fatigue-related error? The risks at that point massively outweigh any good that you might do by completing the flight.

[globaltrainer]

I agree completely. Just trying to cover my back with something specific in the law. Unfortunately, the law is so badly written, operators are interpreting it as it suits them. TC is not stepping in neither.

gt

[Donald]

I agree completely. Just trying to cover my back with something specific in the law. Unfortunately, the law is so badly written, operators are interpreting it as it suits them. TC is not stepping in neither.

gt

TC WILL step in when you exceed 17 hours, and it won't just be the operator that they will be talking to.

[‘Bob’]

This is why the 17 hour duty day exists.

You plan for 14 hours, and the extra three are for those delays getting patients.

Planning for 17 and then having it go over isn’t what it’s for.

That’s what the next shift is for.

[fish4life]

The operator is going to say “we have a policy of nothing over 17 hours” they sure as F aren’t going to back you up and you are going to be facing a license suspension/ fine or worse if you have an accident or kill someone

[digits_]

Don't most ops manuals specifically state that late passengers are not a valid unforeseen reason?

[‘Bob’]

17 isn’t for late passengers. It’s to save lives. You need an affidavit from a doctor to say this is for a life saving flight, and it has to be submitted to Transport Canada along with a bunch of other paperwork.

[Big Pistons Forever]

TC WILL step in when you exceed 17 hours, and it won't just be the operator that they will be talking to.

Exactly, this is one of those times you just say no. Your employers inability to adequately staff flights is not your crisis.

Your only obligation is to alert your employer as soon as it appears you are likely to hit a hard duty time limit. Then it is 100% their problem, don’t make it yours.

[PitchLink]

So, if you know you are gonna bust 17 hours prior to take off and there's of course a lot of unforseens, is there any provision in the law that allows you to do it?

Say your flying Air Ambulance and the patient is still at the hospital but you know very well by the time he boards the plane you're gonna bust?

I would be grateful of your personal opinion but if you could state something in the law it would be even better


GT

Goes against a lot in federal labour code, even if they’re approved for hours of averaging not to mention your duty day is shot. Unfortunately this happens all the time in my end of the industry, usually with younger pilots

[J31]

I do not think you can get to 17 hours for unforeseen circumstance unless you are augmented.

Unforeseen Operational Circumstances — Flight Duty Period and Rest Period

700.63 (1) If the pilot-in-command is of the opinion that an unforeseen operational circumstance that occurs within 60 minutes of the beginning of the flight duty period could lead to a level of fatigue that may adversely affect the safety of the flight, the pilot-in-command may, after consulting with all crew members on their level of fatigue,

(a) reduce a flight crew member’s flight duty period;

(b) extend a flight crew member’s flight duty period by the following number of hours in excess of the maximum flight duty period set out in section 700.28 or subsection 700.60(1) by

(i) one hour for a single-pilot operation,

(ii) two hours, if the flight crew is not augmented,

(iii) three hours, if the flight crew is augmented and there is one flight during the scheduled flight duty period, and

(iv) two hours, if the flight crew is augmented and there are two or three flights during the scheduled flight duty period; or

(c) extend a flight crew member’s rest period.

(2) If a further unforeseen operational circumstance arises after take-off on the final flight for which the maximum flight duty period was extended under subsection (1), the pilot-in-command may, despite that subsection, continue the flight to the destination aerodrome or to an alternate aerodrome.

(3) An air operator shall extend the rest period after a flight duty period is extended under this section by an amount of time that is at least equal to the extension of the flight duty period.

(4) At the end of a flight duty period, the pilot-in-command shall notify the air operator of any change to a flight duty period made under this section.




700.28 (1) An air operator shall not assign a flight duty period to a flight crew member, and a flight crew member shall not accept such an assignment, if the flight duty period exceeds the maximum flight duty period set out in this section.

(2) If the average duration of all scheduled flights is less than 30 minutes, the maximum period of a flight duty period that begins during a period set out in column 1 of the table to this subsection is the number of hours set out in column 2, 3 or 4, according to the number of flights scheduled during the flight duty period.

TABLE

Maximum Flight Duty Period — Average Flight Duration of Less Than 30 Minutes

Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
Item Start Time of Flight Duty Period 1 to 11 Flights 12 to 17 Flights 18 or More Flights
1 24:00 to 03:59 9 hours 9 hours 9 hours
2 04:00 to 04:59 10 hours 9 hours 9 hours
3 05:00 to 05:59 11 hours 10 hours 9 hours
4 06:00 to 06:59 12 hours 11 hours 10 hours
5 07:00 to 12:59 13 hours 12 hours 11 hours
6 13:00 to 16:59 12.5 hours 11.5 hours 10.5 hours
7 17:00 to 21:59 12 hours 11 hours 10 hours
8 22:00 to 22:59 11 hours 10 hours 9 hours
9 23:00 to 23:59 10 hours 9 hours 9 hours

https://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... l#s-700.13

[Cessna 180]

The attitude from Air Ambulance operators that the rules do not apply to them is dangerous. This theme is extended with their exemption from the new impending duty regulations for 703 operators.

What good is "saving lives" when you crash the plane due to fatigue?

[Heliian]

The attitude from Air Ambulance operators that the rules do not apply to them is dangerous. This theme is extended with their exemption from the new impending duty regulations for 703 operators.

What good is "saving lives" when you crash the plane due to fatigue?

That's not how it works. The exemption only comes with a fatigue risk management system in place by the operator.

[rigpiggy]

TC WILL step in when you exceed 17 hours, and it won't just be the operator that they will be talking to.

Exactly, this is one of those times you just say no. Your employers inability to adequately staff flights is not your crisis.

Your only obligation is to alert your employer as soon as it appears you are likely to hit a hard duty time limit. Then it is 100% their problem, don’t make it yours.

make sure it is in writing, and electronically saved. when you are unemployed, because you "aren't a team player, it comes in handy in the constructive dismissal suit.

[co-joe]

I've never even heard of 17 hour duty days. Split duty days yes, but not a straight 17 hour day. My last air ambulance job we had 14 extendable to 15 due to UOC, and they had an ops spec allowing 15 hours due to their laughable FRMS program that was complete and total BS.

I know of one crew that went over 15 hours to save a patient's life. The trip was going to be under 15, but then the patient's vitals crashed as they were being loaded into the machine. The local Doc and 4 medics worked the patient for over an hour to get them stable on the aircraft, it was deemed that the patient would die en route either back to the sending hospital or the receiving one so the crew all agreed to make the trip. It was a big deal because once they landed they required crew rest in a hotel for both medics and both pilots so the aircraft and the base were without a fixed wing ALS aircraft for almost 24 hours.

With something like that, there are so many people involved in the decision from doctors, medics, Alberta Health administrators, the Chief Pilot and Ops Manager, and yes the pilots. The PIC or FO could have said no, and nobody could have questioned them, but they got the job done.

[Cessna 180]

The attitude from Air Ambulance operators that the rules do not apply to them is dangerous. This theme is extended with their exemption from the new impending duty regulations for 703 operators.

What good is "saving lives" when you crash the plane due to fatigue?

That's not how it works. The exemption only comes with a fatigue risk management system in place by the operator.

The Part VII, Division IV regulations that are applicable only to Air Ambulance operators are virtually identical to the old (currently in force) regulations.