PPC/PCC

[jimmyjazz]

I've never been able to figure out what the requirments are for needing to obtain either
ppc or pcc any help.
eg. pilatus at wasaya capt ppc fo has pcc
how do you know what is actually required for
different a/c. Whether its single pilot or 2 crew.
another eg. perimeter baron gets ppc does that actually require it, and does the fo on metro get
ppc or pcc if it is ppc is that a requirment or just
how they do it. Any help figuring this out would
be appreciated.

[oldtimer]

Captains need a PPC. 604 operators (Private) can get by with a PCC. 703 f/o's can get a PCC. Single engine (PC12. C208) Captain needs initial PPC in a Sim but PPC after. 704 and 705 need a PPC. Check out TC's web site under BCA. Spells it all out. In theory the only difference should be that TC does not have to do a checkride for a PCC but it does not renew your IFR. in actuality, it allows lots of unprincipaled operators to pencilwhip training. [/img]

[jimmyjazz]

OK thanks that helps out doesn't really affect myself
but I couln't figure out what the determining factors where.

[ahramin]

Flight Crew Member Qualifications
702.65 No air operator shall permit a person to act and no person shall act as a flight crew member in an aircraft unless the person

(a) holds the licence and ratings required by Part IV or, where the air operator is the holder of an air operator certificate issued in accordance with the North American Free Trade Agreement, the equivalent foreign licence and ratings;

(b) where the aircraft is operated in IFR flight and persons other than flight crew members are on board, has successfully completed a pilot proficiency check, the validity period of which has not expired, for that type of aircraft, in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards;

(c) if the person is not the chief pilot, has successfully completed a competency check or a pilot proficiency check, the validity period of which has not expired, for that type of aircraft in accordance with the Commercial Air Service Standards; and
(amended 1999/06/01; previous version)

(d) has fulfilled the requirements of the air operator's ground and flight training program.

ahramin

[jimmyjazz]

OK I've looked at those links and typical transport they don't really answer they just say as required or something similar. I used the link to the air standards from there and found most of my answers but one scenario that I havn't been able to find is a light multi opperated in Day VFR does this require a PPC or a PCC. It says single engine requires ppc if IFR with passengers or night VFR with passengers and a PCC if day VFR,IFR cargo only or night VFR with passengers. It also talks about 2 crew IFR opperations PIC requires PPC, FO requires inital PPC then recurency as PCC unless type rating is required, but what if we are going to opperate a light twin and we only opperate VFR do I need a PPC or not.

Please Help my brain is going to melt trying to decipher all this transport jargon.
thanks all

[canadian_bacon]

jazz, I'll try my best to explain...

PIC of a multi-engine aircraft (VFR or IFR)- need a PPC

SIC of a mutli-engine aircraft (VFR or IFR)- need a PCC (coupled with a valid IFR if you will operate IFR)- if the IFR has expired, then a PPC ride would renew it.

PIC of a single pilot aircraft (IFR)- need a PPC

PIC of a single pilot aircraft (VFR)- need a PCC

The big different between a PCC and a PPC is that a PPC is actually a ride. The goal of a PCC is to make sure that the pilot is competent in his duties. (this can usually be done during the training time allotted and doesn't always need to be done as a separate "ride")...that being said, a PCC "ride" is required whenever the purpose of the PCC training is to renew the validity of the PPC to two years. This PCC ride can be done by the company training pilot and doesn't need to be done by a check pilot or TC like a PPC..

Clear as mud?

[ahramin]

Don't forget the PCCs in lieu of PPCs.

[jimmyjazz]

OK thanks so I guess if we get this twin we'll need to get tranport out to do a ride for us cause it looks like you need a PPC to operate it even VFR, any idea were I can find this in the cars or standards thanks.

[canadian_bacon]

Jazz, as far as VFR goes, all the CARs states is that in order to act as PIC of a multi-engine aircraft, a PPC is req'd. Reference CARs 703.88(1)(c)(i)

The best person to ask may be your POI as sometimes the CARs is open to interpretation.

[MurtsAir]

Woh Im actually starting to understand this, scary eh

[MurtsAir]

Woh Im actually starting to understand this, scary eh

[oldtimer]

jimmyjazz. don't forget that a lot of the requirements for PPC/PCC also depends on what your ops manual says. Just go the TC website and look in the CARS. If you have a 2 year PPC, then you require "training and checkride in lieu of a PPC" to extend the validity of your PPC. It is done in-house. Also check if there is an FACP in your area. FACP is a Freelance Approved Check Pilot, a check pilot that either makes a living doing checkrides or a Company Check Pilot that legally freelances. Check out the Approved Company Check Pilot Manual on TC's web site. Hopefully, the FACP is as thorough and fair as TC but is more flexible as far as scheduling. That is why I am a company check pilot. I work evenings and weekends etc. etc. But I dont' do it for free, if you get my drift.

[jimmyjazz]

OK I appreciate all your help I think i've finally got it all figured out ,still don't know why the cars seem to purposoley be vauge with things like as per section such & such and that section then says as needed. But thanks for your help I hate talking to transport untill I know what I'm saying because they seem to give a different answer every time I ask a question ( I wonder if they would pass their exams)
It's great to have forums like this to get help from people who do the same thing, thanks again

[another quart]

Jimmie
Cars a vague for a reason. Its for operaters to state out on their COM what they intend to do. Because no company is the same they may need to interpret the regulation a different way. This may sound stupid but it does not bend the Standard which are the rules. If you are seeking a twin your MCM will tell transport how you will maintain it with the equipment required for your operation. Pretty much for PAX a PPC is mandatory. Then all the possibilities are where your getting confused, (perimeter/bearskin/wasaya) they may need the right seat to only be PCCd. That is stated in your own COM and training requirements to do so. Its scrambled and confusing so dont get excited if you think you sound stupid in front of transport because you are right they dont know either. Just tell them your intent and work it together they will do research and get you whre you need to be.

[cyyz]

In theory the only difference should be that TC does not have to do a checkride for a PCC but it does not renew your IFR. in actuality, it allows lots of unprincipaled operators to pencilwhip training. [/img]

ROFL.. =( That's why I was offered a PCC @ $4000 and a PPC @$6500.. LoL.

[makmoco]

PPC's/PCC's apply for all commercial Air services. Aerial Work, Air Taxi, Commuter, Airline. As long as flying ME as either PIC/SIC on VFR/IFR, Cargo/Pax Operations.

[TG]

PPC's/PCC's apply for all commercial Air services. Aerial Work, Air Taxi, Commuter, Airline. As long as flying ME as either PIC/SIC on VFR/IFR, Cargo/Pax Operations.

On a side note, your comment follow another one 13 years old.

[HiFlyChick]

PPC's/PCC's apply for all commercial Air services. Aerial Work, Air Taxi, Commuter, Airline. As long as flying ME as either PIC/SIC on VFR/IFR, Cargo/Pax Operations.

On a side note, your comment follow another one 13 years old.

I noticed that when I read one of the answers about TC doing the ride for a PPC - there's a blast from the past! Those guys never do rides for pilots anymore, although they still do the GPS cert rides on aircraft, which is an absolutely absurd requirement to begin with. Kinda makes me want to phone them up and say "Hey, I just installed a different type of ADF, when would you like to schedule the ride...?"

[cncpc]

OK thanks so I guess if we get this twin we'll need to get tranport out to do a ride for us cause it looks like you need a PPC to operate it even VFR, any idea were I can find this in the cars or standards thanks.

You may get Transport out, but not likely. They designate ACP in the industry to come and do these rides. They charge 300 to 500 bucks.

[HiFlyChick]

OK thanks so I guess if we get this twin we'll need to get tranport out to do a ride for us cause it looks like you need a PPC to operate it even VFR, any idea were I can find this in the cars or standards thanks.

You may get Transport out, but not likely. They designate ACP in the industry to come and do these rides. They charge 300 to 500 bucks.

Actually, in 2004, when this post was made, you actually could get sometimes TC out. Scary how far removed they now are from flight testing, or for that matter, flying at all....