Is this a commercial operation or not?

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Cat Driver
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Post by Cat Driver »

Lard Tunderin Jesus that sure is close.....

How many of you would vote to send me to Ottawa with the legal power to kick Preuss's sorry ass out of Tower C and out on the street and have it on camera?

Then do the same to all his cronies?

Hey Twotter ....does that video sound like me?
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Hornblower
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Post by Hornblower »

Ogee
I pretty well disagree with everything that you said (except where you agreed with me), but I stand to be corrected if you (or the TC guy you asked) can support any of your points with a rule that mirrors your opinion. And if there is no rule, none of what you said is accurate.

I totally agree that insurance is necessary, however the owner does not need to buy it or be named on the policy (subject to insurance comapny policy) as long as the aircraft is insured. Even then, the rule applies to an owner who operates the aircraft, which would not be the case if he wasn't, that is to say the aircraft is operated by the non-owner who rents it and either flies it, or hire someone to fly it for him.


Please feel free to support your opinions with fact.

Eager to learn
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Post by Cat Driver »

Hornblower, you must take all this stuff with a grain of salt, or in the case of anything coming out of the TC Pacific Region office with a whole truck load of salt.

The bottom line is there is no legal requirement to have an OC to rent airplanes...period.

As to the flight training or who gets paid to fly a private airplane I just can't see how this would become any of TCCA's concern.
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Hornblower
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Post by Hornblower »

Right, and the most I can find is a few restrictions in part IV requiring the ground training to be an approved course, and a restriction to all class IV instructors, intruct under the control of a FTU.
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Last edited by Hornblower on Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cat Driver »

Hornblower, training people for a license such as the PPL can be done without a FTU OC as outlined in CAR's.

However it is written in such a manner that TC can deny your students the license if they so choose because the wording is subjective as far as TC is concerned.

However there is no money in flight training at the level of the PPL and CP level anyhow.

Money can be made giving advanced training in areas such as sea plane advanced training and tail wheel training and of course type ratings.

Here is how it works.

Train sea plane pilots as a flight instructor for a school and you may make $25.00 per flight hour.

Train sea plane pilots with a private registered airplane and you make at least $100.00 per flight hour.

The problem is TC will not recognize the training unless you train under an FTU OC for the seven hour float plane rating...so your student only needs the rating and you are legal to do all the training they will pay you for.

And of course you don't need an instructors rating either.
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Ogee
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Post by Ogee »

Hornblower wrote:Ogee
And if there is no rule, none of what you said is accurate.

Please feel free to support your opinions with fact.

Eager to learn
Hornblower
Listen up, laddie.

If you're here to argue about arguments and try and create a situation where you've won and everybody else is lost, you're going to lost my interest and everybody else's very fast.

I've said there is no rule. Get it. No rule. Everything that I have said is accurate.

I said I talked to Transport Canada this morning. That is accurate. More specifically, I talked to the regional superintendent who is the person who the letter would be written to. He told me exactly what I posted. Exactly. That is accurate. It is exactly accurate. I didn't post any "opinions", I just posted as fact what I was told when I finally found someone at TC who knew about the issue.

The crux of what I found out is renting airplanes to licensed pilots is considered a commercial air service, but you don't need any type of OC.

There is no rule. There is a policy. Maintained to commercial standards. He didn't say by an AMO, but suggested that would be the preference. And that's it as far as bare bones goes with TC.

Aside from that, if any pilot is taking money for flying, he must hold some type of professional license. But that's always the case, its not specific to Budget Rent A Plane operations.

I didn't find anything onerous in what the requirements were. There is no application to Transport Canada, they don't approve anything. You don't get a piece of paper for your wall. They don't come and do inspections, unless you prang one.

Although he didn't say so, obviously the aircraft must be commercially registered as its use is commercial. The insurance would have to be for commercial use or there would be no point in having it as they would refuse coverage if they were told it was for private use and found it was for commercial use by TC's definitions.

And, if the company or individual (yes, it needn't be a company, Cat) wants to invoice the check pilot's time on the same invoice, probably no issue at all, but that is the single case where it was suggested it would be a good idea to make this one point to TC and get it in writing that there wasn't a problem.

That's just the checkout. If you are billing hour after hour for plane and some guy doing a float rating or a multi-engine or IFR, then its a much different story. You are providing plane and pilot and I'm sure that's going to be a problem. But hey, that's just my opinion.

The rest of it was fact.

And as for you Hornblower, this isn't some junior high impress the girls debating class. People asked some questions. I did my best to answer them. If you don't like the answers because they make it look like you were talking out of your arse before they were posted, that's tough. All I can say to you then is if you get a chance to @#$! off, take it!
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Post by Cat Driver »

There is no rule. There is a policy. Maintained to commercial standards. He didn't say by an AMO, but suggested that would be the preference. And that's it as far as bare bones goes with TC.
This comes as no surprise, when he said it would be the preference what he in fact is saying that is what it is going to be because that what he will prefer.

I said I talked to Transport Canada this morning. That is accurate. More specifically, I talked to the regional superintendent who is the person who the letter would be written to.
I assume you are referring to the regional superintendent of M&M?

If the airplane is a homebuilt such as the Cub I'm building am I supposed to register that commercial?

There is no way on Gods green earth I will have any contact with the Pacific Region TCCA as long as it is run by Nowzek and his minions, and if they want to make contact with me they better have the money they owe me in my bank account first.

Once again Ogee nothing personal, I have no issues with what you are relating as it is not you who make the rules or policies.....and of course I know you understand that it is their policies that get everything all fuc.ed up.
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Ogee
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Post by Ogee »

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, Cat and certainly that homebuilt thing raises another issue.

I just got the best answer I could to the question in this thread. It is not comprehensive.
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Post by Cat Driver »

I appreciate the fact that you are interested enough to even try and get info from the source Ogee....

We should meet some day I think we could have a very interesting time yapping about the industry.....if only it was like it was many moons ago.....
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Post by shitdisturber »

Cat Driver wrote: if only it was like it was many moons ago.....
Jeebus Cat don't be bringing up bare asses or some nimrod is going to post a picture that'll make me lose my lunch! :wink:
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Post by Cat Driver »

Jeebus Cat don't be bringing up bare asses or some nimrod is going to post a picture that'll make me lose my lunch!
I used a Poor choice of words.....SD...

What I should have said was many years ago the rules were less complicated and most of the TC people came from industry after being in it long enough to know how the system worked.

Today you get more and more TC types who only know how to skew the issues by giving their opinion on what they think the rules mean.

Judging by what I have experienced over the decades there is a real difference.....and it is not for the better.

But it is not my problem now as fortunately I don't have to deal with them anymore.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Hornblower
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Post by Hornblower »

So Ogee;

If I understand correctly what you are saying, here is the scoop:

A rental airplane requires a commercial registration; however there is no rule to support that requirement, only the opinion of a TC superintendent.

The rental airplane must be maintained to un-specified commercial standard; however there is no rule to support that requirement, only the opinion of a TC superintendent. In addition there is an unspecified policy (which is not a rule and as such is not enforceable) that requires such maintenance, however I have never seen it, and you can’t reference it or post it.

The aircraft, although operated privately, must be insured as a commercial aircraft; however there is no rule to support that requirement, only the opinion of a TC superintendent

A commercial pilot must have an additional authority issued in the form of a letter from TC, that permits him to bill for his flying in a private aircraft, however there is no rule to support that requirement, only the opinion of a TC superintendent (although on this point I’m not certain if you are invoking the opinion of a TC inspector)

And by the way I have no problem with you answering questions as you see fit. After all that is the purpose of a discussion forum such as this. I was in no way trying to slander you or belittle you. It’s just that I think it important to dispel misunderstandings about the way we do business, and the authority of TC.

Additionally, the last person in the world I would ask for interpretation of a rule, would be a TC inspector. A lawyer, an aviation professional or even someone like you, (even if in this case I believe your understanding of the rules is in fault) are better choices. I may ask the local TC inspector for his opinion simply to try and anticipate how much trouble it will be to right his ship, … so to speak.

The profanity was totally unnecessary.
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Post by Cat Driver »

I don't want to get between you two here while you sort out your issues...but I do appreciate facts when I see them and this is pure gold.
Additionally, the last person in the world I would ask for interpretation of a rule, would be a TC inspector.
Now back to your sorting this thing out guys....

......in the end it will be simple...

There is nothing in law to prevent either one of you starting up " Budget Rent a Plane " a private business owning private registered and maintained airplanes. Therefore it is a waste of time to ask TC what they think.....

The operative word here is " Think " which is unheard of and would result in dismissal of the TC employee.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
AhmetSalim
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Re: please contact me

Post by AhmetSalim »

Ogee wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:06 am
hornblower wrote:I have been through these sections of the CARs a few times so know where to find the info.

And as I told you once before, I will be very interested to see what happens when you start up your "aircraft-rental-but-not-flight-training" thing. It should be interesting
I'm not sure that the offense of operating an illegal commercial air service is defined solely in the CARS. It used to be an offense under the Aeronautics Act. And the regs used to be issued pursuant to the Act. Probably still is that way, I'm just not up on it. Tonight at least.

Years ago, you didn't need any type of license to rent an airplane to a licensed pilot. I remember guys like Joe Haines at Peace Arch Flying Club at Langley ( the old Texan TV man who ran the cafe at Langley) renting out a 172 and an old bulb nose 210 for years, and all that was legal. If you had a private license, you could rent either aircraft and get your own instructor and do your commercial or your IFR with those aircraft a fair bit cheaper than at the schools next door.

Then maybe 15 years ago I heard a story that you couldn't do that anymore, that they were considering rentals to licensed pilots a commercial air service. The story was that you could get some bare bones type of OC to do so, just minimal paperwork, but nonetheless paperwork. I doubt that you needed a chief pilot or ops manager, but you probably needed a maintenance letter or your own AMO.

I never really heard of anyone setting one up and I guess the business just kind of went to the schools, because they could already do it with their existing OC's or whatever it is they have.

Used to be you could rent Turbo 210's, Lances', Bugsmashers, 310's, Aztecs, and the like easily and cheaply in BC. e.g. Turbo 210, $75 hour wet. Aztec $80 hour wet.

Now you're lucky to get a Seneca under $300 an hour.
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