Question regarding ATPL time requirements

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CJM
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Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by CJM »

I am confused by the ATPL total time requirement. It seems clear when you read the in the Licensing, Registration and Airworthyness section of the AIM as it says the only PIC requirements are 250hrs, 100XC, 25 nightXC. My previous understanding was that you could get these PIC requirements and then go on to fly co-pilot and be credited hour for hour toward the 1500hr total time requirement. but i have stumbled along this
along this standard-->

421.10 Crediting of Flight Time Acquired by a Co-pilot

The holder of a pilot licence may be credited not more than 50% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence.
(amended 1998/12/01; previous version)

does this mean that if you meet all the requirements except for total time toward the ATPL and say you only have 500hrs, you would then need 2000 more co-pilot hours before you could recieve your ATPL, or am I using this standard out of context?

Any explanation is appreciated!
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Grey_Wolf
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Grey_Wolf »

CAR 421.34
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_34

That's right you must meet the requirments set out as per the above.

The 50% crediting of time is the rule. The only exception is that Co-PIC is counted as 1:1 for the "100 Night PIC or 100 Night Co-PIC" requirement. However, in the overall picture (towards the total flight time ), Co-PIC is counted at half the rate as per the norm.

So, to answer your question, YES you would have to do those 2000 hours !



For example, I'll use a "sample" pilot who instructed for 15 months before moving onto a FO position.

During that time, they accumulated a total of 1044.1 before they moved on to a 703 ops. Throughout their instructing career, they managed to met all of the requirments except for about half of the Night PIC. This would mean that they would have to do either 50 hrs at Night PIC or Co-PIC. Those 50 hours would count as 50 hours towards that perticular requirment. However those 50 hours would only count as 25 towards the total time requirment. Which means that this candidate would have to do 1500-1044.1= 455.9 "regular" hours or 911.8 Co-PIC hours before they were able to reach their AA's.
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Last edited by Grey_Wolf on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Grey_Wolf »

Just in case ......

Found the part where Co-PIC counts 1:1 (as the only exception to the 50% rule)

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... el/cop.htm
Co-Pilot Flight Time Credits

Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) 401.10 and 421.10 provide credits for co-pilot flight experience towards the issue of a Canadian pilot licence. Consistent with the international requirements of ICAO, these flight experience credits are applied at a rate of 50%. The following brochure provides additional guidance information for pilots with regard to the application of these CARs.

YES a pilot who is qualified on type, and who is acting as first officer, can legally log co-pilot flight time and credit it towards an ATPL.

IF ... The aircraft is required to be operated with a co-pilot, according to CARs Part VI or VII and as stated in the Private Operators Certificate or Air Operator’s Certificate.

OR ... The minimum flight crew is 2 pilots, according to the aircraft Type Certificate. Refer to CAR 421.40 Appendix A Type Designators for guidance material.

Required to be Operated with a Co-Pilot
The operational requirement for a co-pilot may be stated in the Air Operations Certificate (AOC) or Private Operator Certificate (POC) that has been approved by Transport Canada’s Commercial and Business Aviation (CBA).

If an AOC or POC states that aircraft are required to be operated with a co-pilot, then the operational requirement has been established and approved for the use of a co-pilot. Details on an approved AOC or POC, Operation Specifications (Ops Spec), and Operations Manuals can be provided by the company Operations Manager or the CBA Inspector responsible for the company.

Many companies have an Ops Spec for single pilot IFR which defines the criteria for operations without a co-pilot. The operations manager and chief pilot may be the only employees that have met the single pilot IFR qualifications (1000TT, 100 multi, 50 IFR, 50 on type) and have a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) specifically for single pilot IFR. Other pilots employed by that company may not have a single pilot PPC, so a co-pilot is required by law. By way of example, in the case where an aircraft is dispatched in accordance with the ops spec for single pilot IFR, a co-pilot is not required and in fact is not permitted.

Please refer to Commercial and Business Aviation Policy Letter 141 for details.

In a separate situation, a company may hold the required Ops Spec to fly single pilot IFR, but the Line Captain does not have a single pilot PPC. Therefore a second-in-command is required to legally fly the aircraft according to the CBA approved Operations Manual.

The onus is on the ATPL applicant to provide Flight Crew Licensing with proof that the co-pilot time logged is appropriate to credit towards an ATPL. A letter from the operations manager or chief pilot stating company policy and quoting the company Operations Manual clarifies individual situations.

Minimum Flight Crew of 2 Requirement
The type certificate determines if an aircraft is to be operated with a minimum flight crew of 2. For example, large Boeing Aeroplanes (B737, 747, 757, etc.) are designated as minimum flight crew of 2 on the type certificate. Guidance material regarding minimum crew requirement is found in Section 421.40 of the CARs - Appendix A Aircraft Type Designators. This chart is a guide only and, in the event of a discrepancy, the appropriate Aircraft Type Approval, Aircraft Type Certificate, Flight Permit, Aircraft Flight Manual or Pilot’s Operating Manual take precedence.

Note 1: For an initial 2 crew type rating, you must complete ground and flight training on the aircraft type, have 250 hours TT, write SARON and SAMRA or IATRA, and pass a PPC for that type within 12 months preceding the application date.

Note 2: Canada designates the Beech 1900 Commuter as a minimum flight crew of 2. The FAA designates the same aeroplane as a minimum flight crew of 1.

Note 3: The co-pilot flight experience requirements for the issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane CAR 421.34(4) is often misinterpreted by pilots. Specifically, subpara 421.34(4)(b) requires 100 hours as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot. In the context of this specific paragraph and as an exception to the normal 50% credit rule, a pilot must fly 100 hours as co-pilot at night to get credit for 100 hours co-pilot night. Note as well that the requirement of subpara 421.34(4)(a) of 25 hours of night cross-country must be pilot-in-command, not co-pilot.

Note 4: Another way to credit co-pilot time is Pilot-in-command Under Supervision (PIC U/S). This program can be instituted by large and small air carriers, allowing co-pilots to credit up to 200 hours co-pilot time as 100 hours PIC U/S. This means that 50% of up to 200 hours co-pilot time can be credited as PIC experience if approved and if completed within 12 months of the application date. You can apply 50 hours PIC U/S cross country night to meet the 25 hour night PIC cross-country requirement.

For further information:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/gener ... ac0503.htm
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Clearwater
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Clearwater »

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Last edited by Clearwater on Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Ralliart »

Keep in mind for the 100 hours night, it needs to be 100 hrs night PIC or co-pilot. Dual night time from your PPL / CPL won't count towards the 100 hr night requirement if you submit your books in Pacific Region. I don't know about other regions.

I was recently called back to add more night time that I got as co-pilot since my dual night wasn't going to be enough.

Cheers
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dangerous
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by dangerous »

Clearwater wrote:If the holder of a SPIFR Ops. Spec. establishes and folllows SOP's, under what circumstances would a second in command not be permitted? This situation does not seem to be clarified by Policy Letter 141.
I believe the answer to your question would be SIC is not permitted under any circumstances if you have a SPIFR ops spec. If you're allowed SPIFR, you don't need a copilot. If there is no need for a copilot, no one can log SIC time. That's my take, but I could be wrong.

Also, I believe dual night time doesn't count in any region as it says in the CARs "night PIC or copilot"
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by F,D and H »

Has anyone heard of Transport changing the 50% rule, increasing it somewhat? Little birdy mentioned it, wondered if there was anything to it. Can't fathom how right seat in the circuit is more valuable than shooting approaches to mins in icing at night on a gravel strip. Just me though.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Walker »

F,D and H wrote:Has anyone heard of Transport changing the 50% rule, increasing it somewhat? Little birdy mentioned it, wondered if there was anything to it. Can't fathom how right seat in the circuit is more valuable than shooting approaches to mins in icing at night on a gravel strip. Just me though.
From my understanding its comming down the pipe, but as for when its going to arrive.... who knows, I think it was to bring us inline with ICAO reqs...
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by shower of sparks »

can the 75 hrs of instrument time req'd for the AA's be counted 1:1 if your instrument time is co-pilot?

sos
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by BTD »

shower of sparks wrote:can the 75 hrs of instrument time req'd for the AA's be counted 1:1 if your instrument time is co-pilot?
sos

Yes the 75 hrs is counted 1:1. Only the total time is 50%
dangerous wrote:
Clearwater wrote:If the holder of a SPIFR Ops. Spec. establishes and folllows SOP's, under what circumstances would a second in command not be permitted? This situation does not seem to be clarified by Policy Letter 141.
I believe the answer to your question would be SIC is not permitted under any circumstances if you have a SPIFR ops spec. If you're allowed SPIFR, you don't need a copilot. If there is no need for a copilot, no one can log SIC time. That's my take, but I could be wrong.

Also, I believe dual night time doesn't count in any region as it says in the CARs "night PIC or copilot"
I am pretty sure that it is in accordance with how the flight is dispatched. You can have SPIFR approval and SIC approval in your operating certificate. That way if your autopilot breaks etc. In addition having the option for both, you can get the 14 hrs out of your crewmembers not just the 8hrs that is limited by SPIFR ops.

BTD
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by skybaron »

75 hours of Instrument Time

Can this be logged at NIGHT, where it can also count toward your total Night time requirement?
:shock:
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Flybabe »

IFR is IFR, doesn't matter if it's day or night.

Yes, you can log IFR AND night.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by skybaron »

Really.

Considering how picky TC can be for ATPL issues, I was wondering if they frowned upon "doubling up" on minimum time requirements.

A good example is this:
Ralliart wrote:Keep in mind for the 100 hours night, it needs to be 100 hrs night PIC or co-pilot. Dual night time from your PPL / CPL won't count towards the 100 hr night requirement if you submit your books in Pacific Region. I don't know about other regions.

I was recently called back to add more night time that I got as co-pilot since my dual night wasn't going to be enough.

Cheers
So again, let's say I'm short 25 hours night, as well as 25 hours actual instrument time for the ATPL. If I killed these two birds with one stone, is TC (yes in the Pacific Region) going to reject this?
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Flybabe »

Are you being realistic on logging your time?

I can only speak from experience. I applied for my ATPL once upon a time. I have IFR flights that were flown at night. A 3 hour flight at night is 3 hours night cross country. If I have 1.3 IFR time (actual IFR, not time under an IFR flight plan), then I log 3 hours night cross country and 1.3 actual IFR.

I think you're getting too paranoid about it. I've never had an issue regarding flight times with TC.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by BTD »

The only time double dipping is not allowed is during the night rating. You can't apply night time and IFR time done at night towards the rating. You still log both, but when applying for the rating your night time must be seperate from Instrument. This is the only time double dipping is a factor. For ATPL, Night, X-C, IMC, etc can all be logged on the same flight.

BTD
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by skybaron »

Thanks BTD.
Flybabe wrote:Are you being realistic on logging your time?
C'mon now. If I wasn't being realistic, then my logbook would show that I've flown the spaceshuttle, and I wouldn't need to ask questions on night time or IFR now would I.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by Flybabe »

Not necessarily. You'd be surprised.

The comment wasn't made in a snarky sense, btw. I'm sure your application will be just fine.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by skybaron »

Thanks for all the help with that then. I guess like most float drivers, it's the night/instrument time that plagues us for the ATPL upgrade.
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by 200Above »

Does 'Dual' count towards atpl requirements?

And I mean 'dual' as myself being the student, not instructing. If that affects anything.

EDIT: disregard.... thanks to 300_hour_wonder i got my answer..... yes
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Re: Question regarding ATPL time requirements

Post by old fart »

OK, I'll weigh in for what it's worth. I was a TC Inspector and worked in licensing. I left before the lobotomy.
Even though the same standards are supposed to apply, each application is processed by an individual. When an application is submitted, the person who handles that application may be a pilot with thousands of hours, or could be someone with no aviation background before starting at TC and has more of a "clerk" type background, but is very familiar with the requirements. Whenever I opened a new application and set of logbooks, I could usually get a "feel" for the application. I saw all types. I saw applications with complete breakdowns of all totals, copies of relevant sections from the employers approved manuals showing if or when a co-pilot is required. I saw applications and logbooks that were a mess and required careful examination. It was the latter that received more time and attention. I had one pilot who was working on a twin otter. It was sometimes cargo (no co-pilot required) and sometimes passenger (co-pilot required). A lot of days were a mix between the two. He had been very diligent in doing his best to break down the totals between the two. Another application was from a pilot who had a brand new Commercial and Multi IFR when they were hired on a single engine turbine. They had done 100 PIC under supervision (200 hours / 2) and then all the remaining time (divided by 2) to accumulate the required hours. They had no supporting documents to prove that they were required to have a co-pilot. After all that time (well over 2,000 hours) of flying a single engine aircraft, they had never even advanced to PIC.
One other area that has been touched on is double dipping. If you are doing simulated instrument at night, it is logged as instrument for purpose of applying for the ATPL. Of course your whole flight is not under the hood, there is taxi, takeoff and landing. Apply that portion to your night requirements if necassary, but you can't be crediting two things at once. Same idea as being a "safety pilot" for someone practising instrument time. If you are not an instructor as outlined in the CARS, only the person signing out the aircraft can log the time.
Remember, if you make your application clear and concise and it shows no hint of parker pen or your own interpretation of logging time, it should go through quick and simple. Get too fancy and it will be looked at closer. I always appreciated it when someone made my job easier. I would rather get the paperwork through instead of spending lots of wasted time to prove what someone else should have.
Just my view.
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