The Garmin 196 spat

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Hedley
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The Garmin 196 spat

Post by Hedley »

***Edited*** stl
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Last edited by Hedley on Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

carholme
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by carholme »

Hedley;

Sorry to inform you that it was not I who ratted on you. You can take that up with the mods.

carholme
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small penguin
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by small penguin »

Didnt that flight get all sorts of terrain and airspeed low warnings and stick shakes but the crew opted to follow the indications of pitot static instruments? I seem to recall an episode on TV about it... or a similar incident.

Hedley, using a page to cover the instrument is an idea I'd never have considered. How would you get it to hold over the instrument? I'd assume no tape available... maybe tuck it in between the glass the the rim?
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Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

Use one of the knobs sticking out, like the
AI knob. Punch the torn-out CFS page
over the knob.

Also, what's great for covering up gyros
is those yellow stickies, which you should
have along anyways for marking pages
in the CFS and CAP.
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CID
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by CID »

I have demonstrated using a G196 as a sole
source of flight information. But again,
I doubt anyone here really cares about
any facts. Also, I doubt anyone here thinks
their life is worth more than a G196,
and for most people here, I must agree.
Hedley, are you suggesting a GPS is a replacement for an attitude indicator?
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small penguin
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by small penguin »

I dont think he's suggesting its a replacement. But he's probably suggesting it makes the best damned backup you could have in the event the primary instrument(s) fail.
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Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

Hedley, are you suggesting a GPS is a replacement for an attitude indicator?
Sigh. No, I said that in an emergency, if you
lose your gyros (vacuum, electric) and heck,
even if you lose your pitot/static instruments,
you can still fly an aircraft solely by reference
to the emulated panel of the G196. You
can also use it to fly an overlaid approach.

I know this, because I have demonstrated it.

Is your experience different than mine? What
resulted from your piloting tests of using a GPS
emulated flight instrument panel as a sole reference?

Everyone here thinks I am a lot dumber,
a lot more inexperienced, and a lot less
skilled a pilot than they are. Ok, I will
buy into your obnoxious rhetoric.

But when I fly IFR these days, its
with a G530 in the panel, another
old king GPS in the panel, a G496
on the yoke (with XM satellite wx,
despite the Cdn govt's best efforts
to deny me it) and with a G196
with fresh batteries for complete
standalone backup.

But then again, I'm not as good a pilot
as the non-flying internet experts here,
or even as smart as a CEO owner/operator :roll:

Ok, moderators, censor this post too!
I'm sure someone's feelings are hurt
now, and we CAN'T have that.
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Last edited by Hedley on Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

CID
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by CID »

Sigh. No, I said that in an emergency, if you
lose your gyros (vacuum, electric) and heck,
even if you lose your pitot/static instruments,
you can still fly an aircraft solely by reference
to the emulated panel of the G196.
OK, so you are saying you can use a GPS as a replacement for "gyros". I don't think anyone is denying you are an aviation god Hedley. In this case however, you are just plain wrong and I sure as hell hope nobody reading this buys in your rhetoric.
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Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

you are just plain wrong
My conclusion, CID, was based on an experiment.

I made a data-driven conclusion.

What data is your conclusion based on?

I will gladly demonstrate, to anyone who
cares, an overlaid non-precision instrument
approach using an economical, portable
G196 as a sole flight instrument reference.

I know this because I have done it before.

You?

Given the capabilities of the G196, I am
amazed that people don't carry one as
backup for IFR flight. I guess they don't
think their life and aircraft is worth $700.

Ok, moderators, start censoring!
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2milefinal
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by 2milefinal »

I say what ever gets on the ground safely ....if its your AA powered GPS so be it.
Don't be afraid to think outside the box people. It might save your ass some day.
Have fun with it....thats all I have to say on this subject.

*For Emergency use ONLY*
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Last edited by 2milefinal on Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

Suggestion: instead of indulging in speculation
and trusting to rumour and FUD, why not collect
some real, live data yourself?

Get a hood, and a G196. Mount it on the yoke
of your aircraft. Give it a try. You might be
surprised at how easy it is to fly an overlaid
approach using it. I certainly was.

And yes, this is FOR EMERGENCIES ONLY.

Now, I know that government types like
CID would prefer that when the certified
equipment die, we die with it. That's neat
and tidy. Keeps all the paperwork straight,
y'know.

But when the certified equipment dies,
and I have no other option, I might be
willing to try a non-certified piece of
equipment, instead of dying.

But I just work in the private sector. I
don't have an indexed government
pension, so what would I know?
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small penguin
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by small penguin »

CID wrote:
Sigh. No, I said that in an emergency, if you
lose your gyros (vacuum, electric) and heck,
even if you lose your pitot/static instruments,
you can still fly an aircraft solely by reference
to the emulated panel of the G196.
OK, so you are saying you can use a GPS as a replacement for "gyros". I don't think anyone is denying you are an aviation god Hedley. In this case however, you are just plain wrong and I sure as hell hope nobody reading this buys in your rhetoric.
small penguin wrote:I dont think he's suggesting its a replacement. But he's probably suggesting it makes the best damned backup you could have in the event the primary instrument(s) fail.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

For whatever it is worth I agree with Hedley and support his findings through having done the experiment myself.
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After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.

snoopy
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by snoopy »

Well,
I for one am really relieved that people are promoting self-experimentation using a hood and a non-certified piece of equipment to test a theory on flying blind - in real live aircraft. So when some dumb schmuck takes you up on your advice, are you going to visit the families of the deceased? Do you not know, that even on an anonymous forum, your statements carry some degree of liability? Hedley, this does not surprise me - but .????
Cheers,
Snoopy
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Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

I appreciate your threat, snoopy. Now run along,
adults are talking now.
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Last edited by Hedley on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Do you not know, that even on an anonymous forum, your statements carry some degree of liability? Hedley, this does not surprise me - but .????
Cheers,
Snoopy
Snoopy, my dear Snoopy....please allow me to explain why I agree with Hedley on this issue.

Science is the art of experimentation and examining the results.....if something works then it works......

Flying an experiment is not in its self dangerous...even using a hood, as long as you use the necessary precaution's to ensure safety.

Neither Hedley nor me suggested anyone fly by reference to a GPS as a method of flying...what we said is it could save your life if there was no other means of controlling the attitude of the airplane.

I also support the new paradigm knows as " velocity vector " that is being introduced in the electronic glass cockpit world.

Flying like every other activity in life evolves...we must be geared to evolve with technology that has been proven to work.

Now if you want to be like Hedley and me you should envision doing these exercises inverted just for the challenge it poses. :mrgreen:

We still friends Snoop? :mrgreen:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.

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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

. said:
Neither Hedley nor me suggested anyone fly by reference to a GPS as a method of flying...what we said is it could save your life if there was no other means of controlling the attitude of the airplane.
(jumping up and down) Right!! Right!!

Why oh why do pilots have such poor reading comprehension?

If you re-read my original postings on the subject, I am
suggesting using the G196 emulated panel IN AN EMERGENCY
ONLY
when you have NO OTHER INSTRUMENTATION.

Is the above paragraph really that hard to understand? Could
my anti-fan club please risk tiring their lips out and re-read it?

Is it really that hard to understand that something (eg G196)
is better than nothing (eg certain death?)

What is wrong with you people, that you can't understand
such as simple concept, and instead repond by discarding
valid data, and threaten me with lawsuits?!

You can't possibly that dense, which leaves
as the only other possibility, that you do not wish
people to have emergency equipment, and you
want people to unnecessarily crash and die in the
future.

That's really frightening, people. What's it like,
to be that evil?
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snoopy
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by snoopy »

Hedley,
Perhaps it is you that could use an exercise in reading comprehension. I said my piece, I meant what I said, if others do not agree with it, that is their right, and to be expected.
Cheers,
Snoopy
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Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

What is wrong with you people, that you can't understand
such as simple concept, and instead repond by discarding
valid data, and threaten me with lawsuits?!

You can't possibly that dense, which leaves
as the only other possibility, that you do not wish
people to have emergency equipment, and you
want people to unnecessarily crash and die in the
future.

That's really frightening, people. What's it like,
to be that evil?
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Strega
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Post by Strega »

Hedley,,

I have done (practiced in "simulated IMC") the exact same thing with the 196, and it works as advertised!
This would save your bacon in an emergency when all other gyros have failed, plain and simple.



On another note, wouldnt the meridian have been flying on auto? and IIRC the newer autopilots do not use the attitude indicator and DG for flight reference.
ie STEC SYSTEM 30

and for the record, if the plane was a meridian and not a prop jet malibu, here are the specs:
STANDARD EQUIPPED LIST PRICE $1,896,500
ENGINE
Manufacturer Pratt & Whitney Canada
Model PT6A-42A
Thermodynamic Power 1090 SHP
Climb Power 500 SHP
Take-off Power(Flat Rated)

PROPELLER
Manufacturer Hartzell
Number of Blades 4
Type Constant Speed, Reversible
Diameter
82 in/208 cm

WEIGHTS
Maximum Take-off Weight 5,092 lbs/2,310 kg
Maximum Ramp Weight 5,134 lbs/2,329 kg
Standard Equipped Weight 3,436 lbs/1,562 kg
Standard Useful Load (a and b)
1,698 lbs/772 kg

a. Standard useful load is max ramp weight minus standard equipped weight.
b. Useful load is indicated for a standard equipped aircraft.

DIMENSIONS
Wing Span 43 ft/13.11 m
Length 29.6 ft/9.02 m
Height 11.3 ft/3.44 m
Cabin Length 12.3 ft/3.75 m

Instrument Panel to Rear Bulkhead
Cabin Width 4.1 ft/1.25 m
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WING AREA 183 ft2/17.0 m2

FUEL AND OIL CAPACITY
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Maximum Cruise Power 260 kts

CRUISING RANGE TAS
Range with Full Fuel 1,000+ nm/1,885+ km
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(170 gal usable)

ENDURANCE
Endurance with Full Fuel 4.2 Hours
Full power climb to 30,000 ft max cruise power
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RATE OF CLIMB @ MTOW 1,556 fpm

STALL SPEED
Flaps Extended 36º

69 kias/128 km/h

61 kcas/113 km/h

SERVICE CEILING
30,000+ ft/9,144+ m
30,000 ft is the maximum approved
altitude for the Meridian
TAKE-OFF DISTANCE
Ground Roll 1,650 ft/503 m
Total over 50 ft Obstacle 2,438 ft/743 m Flaps 20º, Gross Weight


LANDING DISTANCE Ground Roll 1,020 ft/311 m

Total over 50 ft Obstacle 2,110 ft/643 m

STANDARD EQUIPPED LIST
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Engine Condition Trend Monitoring Capability (ECTM)
Free Subscription to ECTM Service for One Year
Fire Detection System
Oil Cooler with Thermostatic Control

FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS AND INDICATORS
Avidyne FlightMax Entegra Flat Panel Display System
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Standby Mechanical Flight Instruments
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COCKPIT, FLIGHT AND GROUND CONTROLS
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Overhead Switch Panel Containing:

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Environmental Switch Panel

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
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External Power Supply Receptacle – 28 Volt AN Type
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FUEL SYSTEM
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ICE PROTECTION SYSTEM AND PROVISIONS
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Cabin Altitude and Differential Pressure Indicator
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Cabin Door Seal (Molded)
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• Multi-Function Display
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Mic/Phone Jacks and Overhead Speaker
Pilot’s Microphone
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Hedley
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Hedley »

Hedley, I have done (practiced in "simulated IMC") the exact same thing with the 196, and it works as advertised!

This would save your bacon in an emergency when all other gyros have failed, plain and simple.
Ok, that's three to zero - three completely independent tests
conducted (me, ., Strega) and all come to the same
conclusion - that a G196, in an emergency, can be successfully
used as a substitute for gyroscopic flight instruments. Three
different pilots, three different airplanes, three different GPS's.

Why attempt to suppress and discredit such valuable and
potentially life-saving information?!
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by The Hammer »

Mr. Strega

The aircraft was not a Meridian, (KKH was built in 1989, the Merdian wasn't certified til 2000).
This means your post is insignificant because the weights are not even close to accurate(KKH had MTOW of 1950 kgs/4300lbs) and it is not possible to accurately guess what the installation of the autopilot/AI was. The A/C had been heavily modified since manufacture (powerplant + avionics, + related systems)

The above info is easily available on the TC registry, jetprop, and piper websites....

PS You maybe correct though. After all, my 1989 chevy malibu comes with all the same standard equipment as listed on the 2008 malibu website :roll:

From the Urban Cowboy himself
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sky's the limit
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by sky's the limit »

Hedley wrote: Ok, moderators, censor this post too!
I'm sure someone's feelings are hurt
now, and we CAN'T have that.


Hedley,

You know why your posts were edited, they had nothing to do with the topic and were offensive, just like the other posts edited here. If you're still uncertain about why, please feel free to PM me and I'll be more specific.

You've been around here too long, and contribute to much valuable information. You should know better, the rules are there in black and white.

stl
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by CID »

Ok, that's three to zero - three completely independent tests
conducted (me, ., Strega) and all come to the same
conclusion - that a G196, in an emergency, can be successfully
used as a substitute for gyroscopic flight instruments.
Let's see. The 196 can give you rate of turn based on the change in track (not heading) and your track (not heading) and your ground speed (not airspeed) and GSL (not ASL, AGL or even MSL) and vertical speed based on GSL change and your deviation from selected track.

No pitch or bank information and no true turn and bank indication. If you want to continue "pitching" this solution go ahead. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Personally, I think you'd do almost as good with a piece of yarn on the windscreen.

I think Snoopy said it best actually.
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Re: Alberta PA46 Crash 5 dead:Speculation, causes, poor taste

Post by Strega »

CID wrote:
Ok, that's three to zero - three completely independent tests
conducted (me, ., Strega) and all come to the same
conclusion - that a G196, in an emergency, can be successfully
used as a substitute for gyroscopic flight instruments.
Let's see. The 196 can give you rate of turn based on the change in track (not heading) and your track (not heading) and your ground speed (not airspeed) and GSL (not ASL, AGL or even MSL) and vertical speed based on GSL change and your deviation from selected track.

No pitch or bank information and no true turn and bank indication. If you want to continue "pitching" this solution go ahead. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Personally, I think you'd do almost as good with a piece of yarn on the windscreen.

I think Snoopy said it best actually.


CID,,

although I do agree with you that the 196 is just about as hokey as the yarn, it does and will work in a DIRE EMERGENCY. There is no substitute for gyro instruments, but when they fail, you must know your options.

and FYI the needle and ball or turn and slip indicator does not tell you if you are rolling (well it does, and when it does it tells you the opposite of what you think (rigidity in space)) it only tells you if you are changing direction or heading.
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