The Garmin 196 spat

[Stinky]

Just to clarify my own position, I don't condone taking off in an unserviceable aircraft, what I did was stupid.
I only posted to clear up the debate as to whether or not a GPS could be useful in an emergency, no doubt it was.
Practising to keep an aircraft straight and level with a GPS isn't dangerous in itself, just as practising engine failures or other malfunctions isn't. It's just how you use that skill that can be the problem.

[Lurch]

to justify why you should take off in a "semi-unserviceable aircraft", knowing you're gonna save the day with your Garmin 196 (insert applicable device here). If we don't read about you in the papers, we'll know then, that you were right.

Cheers,
Snoopy

Snoopy

I think you need to go back and read all of the posts. Not a single person here is promoting anybody flying a "Semi-Unserviceable" Aircraft. If this was the case you would find a lot more people on your side, including myself.

What is being dicussed here is the availabilty of another RESOURCE to help get you back safely onto the ground when the S*** hits the fan.

CID I'm beginning to think you have never used one of these systems. 99% of the ones I have seen/used are yoke mounted and the only fumbling you would have to do is push the page button a couple of times.

Every CPL pilot in Canada "Should" be able to safely get an airplane on the ground with the instruments you have listed. What is being offered here is another tool to make your/our job easier.

I bet if I changed the question to "Should a pilot use every resource available to them in an emergency to get thier passengers safely back on the ground?" you would agree. That is what Hedley is suggesting another resource.

Lurch

[snoopy]

Oh well, since we're changing the story as we go... I thought we could all play by those "rules". Perhaps Hedley could explain to this forum then, under what circumstances, there would be "no other option". Be specific now - remember, describe ALL the variables, so we can really get a true picture of how you became so right.

And could you also give us a full description of your scientific method? Don't forget to include all the variables. That way we can evaluate the effectiveness of the study, to determine if the results are applicable in our respective situations. Perhaps others then, will join your cause.

And remember, once you open the door, you better be prepared for other people to modify the variables to fit their own situation, using your "rightness" - such as in the above scenario I just presented. Will you accept the liability then? Or will you simply change the story - 'well I never said to do THAT your Honor'?

[small penguin]

Im just going to throw this out there; a quote from the movie Apollo 13 during the emergency:

"I dont care about what it was DESIGNED to do. I care about what it CAN do."

If you're in an emergency situation, do whatever it takes to ensure your own survival.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This is an interesting crowd we have here......

All those posts where you came just short of legal action for anyone who opposed your opinion based on the fact you chose to expose your identity on an anonymous forum.

I chose to expose my identity here because I am not afraid to be identified if someone wishes to contest what I say....anonymous to would indicate I might feel free to say anything I wanted to and think no one could take me to court for libel.

In my opinion, that sort of nonsense is truly one of the biggest problems we have here. I've complained to mods before about it. Unfortunately they don't seem to be concerned or you have some pretty compromising pictures of them. I haven't figured out which is more probable.

Well CID that is an interesting comment, you are insinuating that I am controlling the mods because I have pictures of them that they would not like made public??

You obviously hold the mods in contempt also.

[BoostedNihilist]

.

[Lurch]

Oh well, since we're changing the story as we go... I thought we could all play by those "rules". Perhaps Hedley could explain to this forum then, under what circumstances, there would be "no other option". Be specific now - remember, describe ALL the variables, so we can really get a true picture of how you became so right.

And could you also give us a full description of your scientific method? Don't forget to include all the variables. That way we can evaluate the effectiveness of the study, to determine if the results are applicable in our respective situations. Perhaps others then, will join your cause.

And remember, once you open the door, you better be prepared for other people to modify the variables to fit their own situation, using your "rightness" - such as in the above scenario I just presented. Will you accept the liability then? Or will you simply change the story - 'well I never said to do THAT your Honor'?

Ok Snoopy I'll play along

My Scientific method was the same technique used for practicing other inflight emergencies I went out and simulated it (CPL FLight test Ex. 24).

Two Pilots
At night
panel lights off
GPS Pilot Hood On

GPS pilot flies straight and level 2 minutes
GPS Pilot turns 180 degree
GPS pilot flies straight and level for 2 minutes

GPS pilot turns airplane 45 degrees right, maintains Straight and level
GPS pilot turns plane 75 degrees left, maintains Straight and Level

GPS Pilot Hood on, eyes closed, head down
Visual pilot enters spiral
GPS pilot looks up at the GPS and exits the spiral and returns to level flight (600' altitude lose)

Visual pilot enters climbing turning stall
GPS pilots looks up at the GPS and exits the stall and returns to level flight (400' altitude lose)

All maneuvers, GPS Pilot maintains airplane within CPL flight test standards

Snoopy I answered your question, now answer just one of mine

Lurch

[CID]

99% of the ones I have seen/used are yoke mounted and the only fumbling you would have to do is push the page button a couple of times.

Well that wasn't really the point but I have a question. Did you get an approval to mount that thing to your yoke?

You obviously hold the mods in contempt also.

What's your point?

[cgzro]

Love your web page Peter...

....I was at the Aviat factory last fall buying a new Husky and can relate to the quality of their paint jobs....among other things.

The Husky has the feel of a Pitts compared to the Super Cub and that is what really cemented my decision to buy the Husky.....

....by the way I have not flown the single place Pitts but I think the single place Pitts would like flying me because I weigh 120 pounds.

By the way the view on final sure looks better than from the back seat of the S2B.

Thanks, yes Aviat sure knows how to build a beautiful plane thats for sure. Never flown a Husky but I imagine with Aviat heratige they are pretty nice to fly. Wow at 120lbs in an S1, you'd have a real rocket on your hands. Actually the view out the front is not as good as it looks in the videos because the helmet cam is right smack against the cockpit glass about 3" further left than my eye. That makes a big difference. Sometimes on really nasty little runways like St-Hyacynthe where if you screw up you either go into the corn or into the pond I will open the cockpit and lean my head out for a better view

Never have flow an S-2B rear seat, but did do a few hours in the rear of Gerry Youngers S-2A rear seat before soloing the T. Thought it was actually a tiny bit better than the single seaters but not as bad as the front seat in the A or B, man if you can fly from that front hole you are doing the Obe-One-Kenobe 'feel the force' thingy in the flair

Anyway you guys sure like to argue, the weather is nice, my annuals nearly done .. time to fly instead of surf!

[Hedley]

This has gotta go down as one of the weirdest threads
in AvCanada's history.

I am not asking anyone to believe me, that in a dire emergency
when you have no other options, that it is possible to fly
an aircraft by sole reference to a battery-powered G196.

I am asking people to make up their own mind, via a
data-driven decision based on their OWN experiments.

Apparently, this is such an immoral and terrible idea
that I have been threatened with court action by the
twisted gnomes here.

Simply bizarre.

[Lurch]

99% of the ones I have seen/used are yoke mounted and the only fumbling you would have to do is push the page button a couple of times.

Well that wasn't really the point but I have a question. Did you get an approval to mount that thing to your yoke?

You obviously hold the mods in contempt also.

What's your point?

To answer your question, no! Are you trying to get at the STC/LTC issue?

Well I don't need an STC/LTC the yoke mount is secured to the airplane using velcro so it's not perminitly mounted to the airplane

CID I answer your questions so why don't you just answer my question?

"Should a pilot use every resource available to them in an emergency to get thier passengers safely back on the ground"?

Lurch

[cgzro]

How many of these "life threatening" emergencies started from bad decision making like this:

"A GPS saved my life once. I was flying single pilot IMC in a crappy King Air. The turn and bank didn't work when I departed,

If the airplane was crappy, and basic flight instruments unserviceable, why depart in the first place? Then use the resultant situation to justify a questionable practice?

That would indeed be dumb but I don't recall that ever being the basis of this thread.

Which is being further promoted here:

"However, I might humbly ask you, to instead of relying on the airchair conjecture of non-pilots here, to conduct your own experiment(s), acquire your own data (don't accept mine) and reach your own conclusions."

The above was clearly aimed at pilots. Every pilot will read that to mean a normal IFR practice which involves a VRF safety pilot. It is common practice to experiment with different failures. I common sit right seat for people and slowly cover up different things. I even cover up the panel timer so they have to use their own watch sometimes. On engine failure practice I've had an examiner suggest opening a door to get extra drag if necessary, do whatever is necessary to nail your landing spot... in an emergency all the rules go out the window. Thats the context.

I wonder what Garmin would say about the extent of their liability in this matter, if they knew that a bunch of self-important "experts" up in Canada were promoting all these little "experiments" with a live pilot(s) and real aircraft. And subsequently promoting their "scientific" results to the rest of the community as recommended practice, egging them on to try it too?

Garmin would not make the device if they did not feel it was useful. They of course have disclaimers associated with it. Obviously they felt it would save more lives than not having it or they would not have taken the chance of selling it.

If Garmin's (or whoever's) equipment was built with the necessary capability, and redundancies in place to support this kind of use, do you not think they would have certified it accordingly? Or do you think maybe they know the limitations of their equipment, and the extent of their liability in the ways it might be used?

The CARS don't apply in an emergency. Again why do you think this is being promoted for sole IFR use outside of an emergency. Is it the fact that 'practicing it' was being suggested? Thats normal. For example, practicing IFR flight in VFR conditions with a check pilot. Its not an IFR flight so what instruments you use or not are not relevalt as long as you obey VRF its all perfectly legal and done every day by hundreds of pilots all over Canada/World.

There is a vast difference between a proper, controlled scientific experiment, and the ad hoc flight testing some users are promoting here.

True. Now we know that most pilots in IMC without proper instrumentation will last about 2 minutes before getting into a spiral.
Its not hard to believe, or to prove that that 2 minutes is probably greatly increased with something like a 196. So yes you'd need to do a big sample etc. but its perfectly reasonable to believe this assertion based on the physics and math and the three or so folks that say they have tried it.

Would you make these same arguments about using GPS as an emergency backup for VOR/DME navigation? Or about using a handheld radio as a backup for a comm failure? or about using a cell phone to call in flight ? A real pilot will use every means at his or her disposal to get on the ground safely. Thats all this is about and any counter argument makes no sense at all??

[CID]

"Should a pilot use every resource available to them in an emergency to get thier passengers safely back on the ground"?

Well of course. If you think I'm disputing that, you're mistaken.

Well I don't need an STC/LTC the yoke mount is secured to the airplane using velcro so it's not perminitly mounted to the airplane

Have you considered the effect of the extra weight on the yoke has on the stability of the flight control system? It's just another example of treating airplanes like science experiments. Were you aware that the mounting of weight on control yokes in this manner may invalidate your C of A?

On engine failure practice I've had an examiner suggest opening a door to get extra drag if necessary, do whatever is necessary to nail your landing spot... in an emergency all the rules go out the window.

Your examineer should be shot and p*ssed on. In a "real" emergency there are no rules. In real life, prevention is always better. In simulated emergencies, there are rules.

Garmin would not make the device if they did not feel it was useful. They of course have disclaimers associated with it. Obviously they felt it would save more lives than not having it or they would not have taken the chance of selling it.

"Useful" is good. Promoting it as a backup isn't even bad. Promoting it as a possible replacement for gyros, not so good. At least not without a very strongly worded disclaimer.

The CARS don't apply in an emergency.

cgzro, if you truly believe that, then you are dangerous. Ever heard of "emergency procedures"? If you follow them, chances are you will survive. If you invent your own procedures as you go along, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

Would you make these same arguments about using GPS as an emergency backup for VOR/DME navigation? Or about using a handheld radio as a backup for a comm failure? or about using a cell phone to call in flight ?

No. I wouldn't argue about using a screwdriver as a screwdriver or a hammer as a hammer either. However, I'm having issues with using a GPS as a gyro replacement.

This discussion doesn't have to be such a long dragged out affair. Hedley (and others) insist that there is a chance you can get your airplane down safely in IMC with a GPS 196 and no other flight or navigation instruments. Great. What myself and others are interjecting with here are mainly caveats and probable disclaimers that will hopefull prevent some young guy from launching in an old Kingair with broken instruments just because he brought his portable GPS along, based on the discussion here.

[ragbagflyer]

Have you considered the effect of the extra weight on the yoke has on the stability of the flight control system? It's just another example of treating airplanes like science experiments. Were you aware that the mounting of weight on control yokes in this manner may invalidate your C of A?

Be realistic. What about the weight of your hands! Or a clip and a set of approach plates.

Nobody in their right mind is going to go blasting off IFR just because they have a 196. But if you have a gyro/electrical failure, if you keep the ball centered and the wings on that 196 level you will stay upright. It's not a substitute for gyros, it's an alternate form of partial panel flying, and it could very well save your ass.

[ch135146]

I've never seen one of these gizmos...could somebody post a picture of the display that would be used in the scenario we are discussing? (So far, using one in a dire emergency makes sense to me.)

Thanks.

[Hedley]

Try this link:

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/alt-image.d ... reen3Large

[CID]

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Was I in violation of the rules and showing poor decision making when I was practicing zero zero landings many years ago in a two crew airplane?

Was I wrong to have landed those two airplanes in zero / zero conditions and lived to see another day......maybe I should have just kept flying until they ran out of fuel and then slammed into the mountains in cloud?

[CID]

Was I in violation of the rules and showing poor decision making when I was practicing zero zero landings many years ago in a two crew airplane?

Was I wrong to have landed those two airplanes in zero / zero conditions and lived to see another day......maybe I should have just kept flying until they ran out of fuel and then slammed into the mountains in cloud?

No. Now stop acting like a wounded sparrow.

[ch135146]

Thanks for the photo, CID. Seeing that, I'd definitely try one in a dire emergency. And, I'd practice using it for such an emergency.