Careful if you lose hydraulics

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pelmet
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Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by pelmet » Sat May 03, 2008 7:13 am

Remember, when you feather with no brakes or on a slippery surface, you will move forward. Taxiing without hydraulics is risky anyways. Get towed in if you can.

A08A0062: The Saab SF340-A aircraft, registration C-GYQM, operating as Prince Edward Air flight CME174 was on a scheduled cargo flight from Deer lake, NL to Gander, NL. On departure from Deer Lake, and when the landing gear was retracted, the hydraulic caution light illuminated. The crew completed the QRH checklist, turned off the hydraulic pump, and diverted to St. John's where maintenance was available. On approach to St. John's, the hydraulic pump switch was moved to the override position for gear extension and the gear extended to the down and locked position, however, the hydraulic quantity indication had now dropped to below the green arc. An uneventful landing was carried out on runway 11 and the aircraft was slowed to a safe taxi speed by using reverse thrust. Since braking and nose wheel steering were still available, it was decided to taxi to the hangar. Upon reaching the hangar apron, the propellers were feathered, however, as the propellers were moving to the feather position some thrust was produced and the aircraft continued moving forward. By this time, the hydraulic fluid was depleted and braking was no longer available. The aircraft continued to roll forward until it struck a hangar causing substantial damage to the nose of the aircraft and minor damage to the hangar. There were no injuries to the crew. Maintenance found that a "banjo fitting" on the return side of the right main gear down lock actuator had failed
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Galaxy
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Galaxy » Sat May 03, 2008 8:35 am

That's where having some bush time would have helped i.e. float or ski flying!!
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by black hole » Sat May 03, 2008 9:40 am

I hate banjo fittings!!!

BH
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Liquid Charlie » Sat May 03, 2008 10:52 am

maybe an improved SOP and/or comments and advisory items on the QRH would have prevented the incident.
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J31
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by J31 » Sat May 03, 2008 5:54 pm

Liquid Charlie wrote:maybe an improved SOP and/or comments and advisory items on the QRH would have prevented the incident.
Maybe some common sense :?. The gear extension, brakes and steering use hydraulics’ which is low :idea:....land, stop, chock it, and shut it down. Then install the gear pins and tow to the hangar :!:
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Liquid Charlie » Sun May 04, 2008 5:33 am

Maybe some common sense :?. The gear extension, brakes and steering use hydraulics’ which is low :idea:....land, stop, chock it, and shut it down. Then install the gear pins and tow to the hangar :!:
Too bad it isn't that simple -- "one man's common sense is another man absurdity" in any given situation. I'm sure these guys fully believed they were using good common sense by clearing the runway and saving all the hassle of getting a tug out to haul them away. 20/20 hindsight is very easy and people can sit here and point at individual pilots BUT you can be sure that if this company's SOP dictated the aircraft be shutdown and towed after any hydraulic failure this thread should not be happening. If it did well likely everyone would advance one more number :smt040

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Company Itin
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Company Itin » Mon May 05, 2008 2:03 am

[quote="cpt sweet'njuicy"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTv6CAmCO8I[/quote]

Cpt S&J,

I didn't recongnise you. Its been a while. I see you've grown a mustache, and gotten even better at the Banjo. :) HAHA j/k
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Spinner » Mon May 05, 2008 8:54 am

Just curious as to where the TSB report came from?
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by AntiNakedMan » Mon May 05, 2008 6:04 pm

Spinner wrote:Just curious as to where the TSB report came from?
It's a cut and paste from the CADORS
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon May 05, 2008 6:10 pm

I thought hydraulic fluid was flamable. Why risking a fire by taxiing to the hangar when you can shut down on the taxiway and let the guys pull your airplane??

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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by bobcaygeon » Mon May 05, 2008 9:57 pm

Transport airplanes use skydrol for hydraulic fluid which is non-flammable and is required due to the relatively large quantities of fluid transport a/c require. (It's toxic as hell but doesn't absorb moisture as badly as petroleum based fluid. It also strips paint, so often aircraft have paint missing from their bellies if they have had a leak, particularily from the gear)
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Jaques Strappe » Tue May 06, 2008 6:55 am

Does the park brake not have an accumulator? Most do.
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Spinner » Tue May 06, 2008 7:06 am

AntiNakedMan wrote:
Spinner wrote:Just curious as to where the TSB report came from?
It's a cut and paste from the CADORS

Actually it's not.

this is the CADOR report

UPDATE Commercial & Business Aviation: The aircraft departed Deer Lake and upon selecting gear up, the hydraulic light and the annuciator came on. The captain immediately shut the hydraulic pump off as per memory checks. After completing the checklist it was determined that they had a hydraulic leak in the system. The main accumulator still had some fluid so they decided to bypass Gander and continue on to St. John's where the weather was better. Landing was normal. The captain had some steering and soft brakes. The captain decided to taxi the aircraft onto the ramp area. He feathered the propeller about 150 feet from the hangar. The forward thrust from the props going into feather gave the aircraft some forward momentum. With the slight downgrade the aircraft rolled until it hit Hangar 3. The captain had no brakes or steering. There is substantial damage to the nose cone area. The aircraft will be out of service for two to three weeks.
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WOW... WHAT A RIDE

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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Four1oh » Tue May 06, 2008 7:20 am

Jaques Strappe wrote:Does the park brake not have an accumulator? Most do.
it should have, but in the case of hydraulic failure, every plane I've ever flown that have them are VERY specific in the POH that you only have the guarantee of stopping the aircraft on the runway, as long as you use the proper stopping technique. You're supposed to set the brakes, shutdown and get towed in from there.(the planes I flew)
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ever
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by ever » Tue May 06, 2008 11:11 am

"Remember, when you feather with no brakes or on a slippery surface, you will move forward."

Wouldn't you roll backwards?
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by boeingboy » Tue May 06, 2008 11:28 am

Why would you roll backwards?

The props go from fine pitch - THROUGH course pitch to get to feather. Putting more pitch on the blades makes you go forward.
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ever
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by ever » Tue May 06, 2008 11:33 am

Whoops my bad, Youre absolutely right, disregard.
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by AuxBatOn » Tue May 06, 2008 11:43 am

I'm curious why the crew decided to go ahead and taxi with hydraulic problems... What's the big deal with shutting down on the taxiway and wait for someone to pick you up??

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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by The Hammer » Tue May 06, 2008 12:13 pm

That would be a training/ company mentality issue.
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Four1oh » Tue May 06, 2008 9:58 pm

The Hammer wrote:That would be a training/ company mentality issue.
exactly. company culture... once again.
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pelmet
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by pelmet » Wed May 07, 2008 5:18 am

Of the four aircraft I have flown in the transport category, only 1 used Skydrol, The rest use the usual flammable red stuff.
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pilotyyt
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by pilotyyt » Wed May 07, 2008 9:44 am

I used to fly a SAAB.... the checklist does say not to taxi.... company guy trying not to make trouble I guess.
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Flybabe » Thu May 08, 2008 5:16 pm

Did someone mention banjo?

Seriously, though. I can see how easy it would be to overlook what might have happened. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.

I fly an airplane that heavily relies on hydraulics. HEAVILY. There is no waffling - if there's a hydraulic issue, you land at the nearest suitable field, no questions asked. Even with 2 hydraulic systems on board, we don't take a chance. Our last issue was a damaged 0-ring on the high pressure line out of the left engine driven pump... at 3000 PSI it would have pissed all of our fluid out before destination & we'd have no flaps, brakes, gear, nosewheel steering.....

Gotta love old technology!

PS - s&j - I met JD Crowe in Nashville in February... NEENER :P
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by Four1oh » Thu May 08, 2008 10:56 pm

Geez Flybabe, you're not flying a 748 are you?
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Re: Careful if you lose hydraulics

Post by xsbank » Fri May 09, 2008 3:39 pm

Skydrol is NOT non-flammable! It has a higher flash-point than other, less toxic fluids and it has specific purposes, but it will burn just fine, thank you. Note the flashpoint is 215 degrees. This is one version of Skydrol:


MSDS Name: MCS-2361 (000000000140)
-
Material Safety Data Sheet

1. IDENTIFICATION

Preparation MCS 2361

Company

Solutia Europe S.A./N.V. - Parc Scientifique - Fleming
rue Laid Burniat, 3 - B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve (Sud) - BELGIUM
Tel. : +32(0)10 48 15 50 - Fax : 0800 89 82 76

Emergency telephone

+32(0)3.568 5123 (Belgium)
________________________________________________________________________

2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Composition

Modified alkyl-aryl phosphate ester
CAS No. : 1241-94-7 Einecs No. : 214-987-2

Additives

Contains the following :

Proprietary corrosion inhibitor

Anti-foam agent

Dye C.I. solvent blue
CAS No. : 14233-37-5

Details of composition are confidential.
Page: 1
MSDS Name: MCS-2361 (000000000140)
________________________________________________________________________

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION

Human health effects

On the basis of available information, this material is not
expected to produce any significant adverse health effects when
recommended use instructions are followed.

Environmental effects

May cause adverse effects.
_________________________________________________________________________

4. FIRST-AID MEASURES

Skin contact

Wash immediately with plenty of water.
Use soap if available.

Grossly contaminated clothing

Take off immediately all contaminated clothing.
Wash before re-use.

Eye contact

Rinse immediately with plenty of water.

Inhalation

Remove patient to fresh air.
If breathing is difficult give oxygen.
Apply artificial respiration if patient is not breathing.
________________________________________________________________________

5. FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES

Extinguishing media

Extinguish with waterspray, foam, CO2, dry chemical.

Exposure hazards

When very strongly heated (> 300°C) decomposes to give off toxic
fumes.

Protective equipment

Firefighters, and others exposed, wear self contained breathing
apparatus.
________________________________________________________________________

6. ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES

Personal precautions

Avoid breathing vapour from hot material.

MSDS Name: MCS-2361 (000000000140)
Avoid contact with skin and eyes.
Product may cause a slip hazard.

Environmental precautions

Keep out of drains and water courses.

Methods for cleaning up

Absorb in earth or sand.
__________________________________________________________________________

7. HANDLING AND STORAGE

Handling

Good industrial practice in housekeeping and personal hygiene
should be followed.
Use only in well ventilated areas.

Storage

Keep container tightly closed.
No other special precautions appear necessary.
________________________________________________________________________

8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS/PERSONAL PROTECTION

Respiratory protection

Avoid breathing vapour from hot material.

Hand protection

Wear impermeable gloves.

Eye protection

No special requirement.

Skin protection

Wear suitable protective clothing.
________________________________________________________________________

9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES

Appearance : clear to cloudy blue liquid (ASTM D 2155)
Boiling point : 375.0 °C (pressure 101.32 kPa) (ASTM D 2155)
Flash point : 215.5 °C (open cup Cleveland)
Auto ignition temperature : 521.1 °C (ASTM D 2155)
Kinematic viscosity : 0.0000098-0.0000106 m2/s (temperature 38 °C)(ASTM D 2155)
Pour point : - 56.6 °C (ASTM D 2155)
Specific gravity : 1.085 - 1.095 (25 °C / 25 °C) (ASTM D 2155)
Vapour density : > 1 kg/m3 (air=1) (ASTM D 2155)
Vapour pressure : 0.00026 kPa (temperature 93 °C) (ASTM D 2155)
Water solubility : practically insoluble (ASTM D 2155)
________________________________________________________________________

10. STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
MSDS Name: MCS-2361 (000000000140)

Conditions to avoid

This material possesses no particular hazardous chemical
reactivity properties.

Materials to avoid

None.

Hazardous decomposition products

Decomposition products : oxides of phosphorus, CO2, CO and hydrocarbons.
__________________________________________________________________________

11. TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION

Laboratory data

Solutia has not conducted toxicity studies on this product.
Data obtained on main component are summarized below :

Oral LD50 (rat) : > 15800 mg/kg.

Dermal LD50 (rabbit) : > 7940 mg/kg.

Mean EU skin irritation scores (per rabbit, 24 h exposure) :
redness : 1.66/1.00/2.00
swelling : 0/0/0

Mean EU eye irritation scores (per rabbit, 24 h exposure) :
redness of conjunctivae : 0.66/0.66/0.66
swelling of conjunctivae : 0/0/0
corneal opacity : 0/0/0
iris lesions : 0/0/0

Human data

The main component is not considered to be a primary skin irritant
nor a skin sensitizer. These conclusions are based on a study
involving 200 subjects under occlusion for 48 hours.
________________________________________________________________________

12. ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION

Solutia has not conducted environmental studies on this product.
Data obtained on main component are summarized below :

Aquatic toxicity

96 h LC50 Bluegill sunfish (Lepomis macrochirus) : 32 mg/l.
96 h LC50 Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) : 15 mg/l.
96 h LC50 Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas) : 14 mg/l.
48 h LC50 Water flea (Daphnia magna) : 0.15 mg/l.
48 h LC50 Midge (Paratanytarsus parthogenogenetica) : 0.5 mg/l.

Biodegradation

The main component was evaluated in a series of aquatic
studies to determine its half life and biodegradability.
Page: 4
MSDS Name: MCS-2361 (000000000140)

Modified SCAS test : 74 +/- 9 % at 3 mg/l.
Modified Sturm test : CO2 evolution was 82.3 % at 21.6 mg/l.
Test concentration : 28 days.
In a river die away test : 1 mg/l. The half life was 1-3 days.
Readily biodegradable.
________________________________________________________________________

13. DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS

Small quantities : Burn in proper incinerator.
Large quantities : Consult Solutia for specialist advice.
All local and national regulations should be followed.
________________________________________________________________________

14. TRANSPORT INFORMATION

Regulated ROAD/RAIL : yes
AIR : no
SEA : yes

Proper Shipping Name:
ENVIRONMENTALLY HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCES, LIQUID, N.O.S.

UN Class : 9 UN No. : 3082
Packing Group : III

ROAD/RAIL
ADR/RID Class : 9 Marginal : 2901
Item : 11c
Hazchemcode : 2x Kemler : 90

SEA

IMO Class : 9 Page : 9028
Emergency Schedule, EmS No. : 8-10
Marine pollutant (P).
________________________________________________________________________

15. REGULATORY INFORMATION
EC label

None.
________________________________________________________________________

16. OTHER INFORMATION

This Material Safety Data Sheet has been prepared on the basis of
product application as a fire retardant hydraulic fluid.
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