CPL-Multi-IFR done...Go to the Canadian Airforce??

[Beaver8]

Just wondering if there's any people out there that have done this. I have all my training done and wondering if going to the CAF is a good choice?..Would I have to do all the military flight training?? or would I skip that and start some training on an aircraft. Just wonder if its worth it...

Beaver8

[AuxBatOn]

Can you tell me what makes you special with regards to other applicants with you 200 hrs on bug smashers?

Different ways of doing things, different instruction, much more complicated airplanes (compared to the typical trainers), much faster airplanes (again, compared to the typical trainers), so to sum it up, it doesnt give you any advantage whatsoever (other than the fact that you are used to flying). Some people with ATPLs and that used to fly for airlines failed the BASIC flying training course... Some people with 0 Previous Flying Experience nailed the course. Your license doesn't mean anything to the CF.

AuxBatOn

[just curious]

It may let you duck out on the sim in the aircrew selection course.

Beyond that, every flight you do is a checkride of sorts. A couple bad days, and you'll be doing the NWO road trip.

It'll let you fly some cool jobs on cool airplanes. If it doesn't work out, you'll be in better shape and can still go back to our side of things.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Beaver8 and Auxbaton: I suggest you both lose some attitude

Beaver8; Just because you "finished your training" doesn't mean you have any value to either a commercial operator or the miltary. You should investigate all of your options, one of which could be the military. However it is important to note you will be a military officer (with all the responsibilties that entails) who happens to fly, and not the other way around.

Auxbaton: You have had the luxury of recieveing some of the best flying instruction in the world but you also lead a privaledged and cosseted life that does not have to reflect commercial imperatives with respect to operating costs of both personnel and equipment. I have worked with some ex miltary pilots. Some were excellent drivers and good guys, but a few talked METO power but delivered economy cruise.

No one organization has a monopoly on good aviators

[C-GGGQ]

you will have to go through aircrew like everyone else, basic military training as well. If you hold CPL MIFR, I BELIEVE they will let you bypass Primary flight training on the Grobb (might only be if you hold an aviation diploma from a college though if i remember correctly) however you will still go to moosejaw for Basic flight training starting on the Harvard II. Hope that answers your question. Best advice talk to a recruiter, they can get you the official info.

[AuxBatOn]

Beaver8 and Auxbaton: I suggest you both lose some attitude

Beaver8; Just because you "finished your training" doesn't mean you have any value to either a commercial operator or the miltary. You should investigate all of your options, one of which could be the military. However it is important to note you will be a military officer (with all the responsibilties that entails) who happens to fly, and not the other way around.

Auxbaton: You have had the luxury of recieveing some of the best flying instruction in the world but you also lead a privaledged and cosseted life that does not have to reflect commercial imperatives with respect to operating costs of both personnel and equipment. I have worked with some ex miltary pilots. Some were excellent drivers and good guys, but a few talked METO power but delivered economy cruise.

No one organization has a monopoly on good aviators

I never implied that military pilots were the "sh it" (I'd say military pilots are good at what they do (usually), just like civilian pilots are good at what they do. They just do different things). I just said that the civilian training (which I had myself by the way, I experienced both sides of the coin) doesn't mean anything to the military and for a reason. The reason being the way the military does buisness is much different that the way civilian companies do buisness.

There are good apples and bad apples on both sides.

Edit: C-GQQG: you're right, bypass for PFT for any commercial pilot. However, everyone has to do aircrew selection.

AuxBatOn

[groundpilot]

I would take what Max or AuxBat on or whatever he calls himself now with a grain of salt.

The fact is that having experience doesnt guarantee success as a military pilot but it should definitely be an aid. Talking to a couple of the pilots awaiting for Moose Jaw and Portage and sounds like they had a choice to do Primary on the Grob. A lot of the Basic course on the HarvardII is instrument flying and a guy with solid IFR training ideally from a good school generally does pretty well. I dont know of anyone who had any issues in flight training from schools like Confed or Sioux.

The key to military flight training with experience is not using your experience as a crutch but as an aid because when you start learning dramatically different stuff(ex Formation Flying) you can find yourself overwhelmed at a steep learning curve your not used to.

As for asking yourself "Is it worth it?"

Pro's:
- solid pay and benefits from the start
- opportunity to fly some great airframes
- should have a feeling of serving your country and making a difference

Con's
- loss of flexibility of your career. Once your winged, your now a CF asset and can be used at their discretion. This can mean not doing what you want or living where you want and not being able to quit. example, ground tour or flying UAVs(unlikely in your early part of your career but possible)

- not flying as much as a civie. Lots of waiting between courses and when you finally get operational, you may not be flying nearly as much as you want. example: you probably wont touch an airplane your first year in

- the officer thing. You will have secondary duties in addition to flying which equates to spending time doing other stuff besides flying
- max pay is $110,000 (still good but not the high salaries you can see at some companies)
- flying old airplanes
- getting shot at

[Strega]

Can you tell me what makes you special with regards to other applicants with you 200 hrs on bug smashers?

Different ways of doing things, different instruction, much more complicated airplanes (compared to the typical trainers), much faster airplanes (again, compared to the typical trainers), so to sum it up, it doesnt give you any advantage whatsoever (other than the fact that you are used to flying). Some people with ATPLs and that used to fly for airlines failed the BASIC flying training course... Some people with 0 Previous Flying Experience nailed the course. Your license doesn't mean anything to the CF.

AuxBatOn

you forgot to mention if your french canadian, a visible minority, a woman, or gay, your a shoe in and can do no wrong!

just for the record, I have talked to several CF pilots,(and others) and the harvard II flys like an overpowered 172.

I wonder how many harvard II pilots could fly a harvard? ( or AT6 )

Only in Canada!

[SAR_YQQ]

and the harvard II flys like an overpowered 172.

A Cessna with a P&WC turbo-prop pumping out 1100SHP - maybe.

The Harvard 2 is nothing like a Cessna - let's stop this chicken sh*t right here.

It's nothing special when it comes to other high performance aircraft, but it is pretty something for a 35 hour pilot to strap-in to that Martin-Baker escape system and take her up. $6 Million CAD doesn't buy a lot, but it sure buys a capable trainer.

[Airbrake]

If you are hoping to get lots of flying with the CF talk to a recruiter first. There is one pilot who is with the CF who left a commercial operation with approx 1200 hours. This pilot in 4 years with the CF has logged a total of 110 hours (and still waiting). There is another that I know who left a commercial job with the same time at the same time and is now on the C-17. So it is all a random shot in the dark
If you have an accredited diploma (Mount Royal for sure, not confident on who else qualifies) you will have the opportunity to bypass Portage and go directly to Moose Jaw for the Phase 2A training (Harvard II)(That is also dependent on the entry program being offered at the time-COTP). It does not give you any leg up what so ever. If anything there might be some merit in doing the Portage course as you will learn to do things the military way. If you do not have much time (200 hours is really nothing) you might not have any habits that will need to be worked out by the forces.

Good luck

[Beaver8]

Thanks guys for the info. I was just wondering thats all. I wouldnt mind going to the AF but I think I will look closer at my options here instead of waiting a another year, give or take before I fly. So thank you guys for you time.

beaver8

[Strega]

and the harvard II flys like an overpowered 172.

A Cessna with a P&WC turbo-prop pumping out 1100SHP - maybe.

The Harvard 2 is nothing like a Cessna - let's stop this chicken sh*t right here.

It's nothing special when it comes to other high performance aircraft, but it is pretty something for a 35 hour pilot to strap-in to that Martin-Baker escape system and take her up. $6 Million CAD doesn't buy a lot, but it sure buys a capable trainer.

ok you win, its not like a cessna, what about a piaggio avanti?, or perhaps lear 23?

[Rockie]

You're out of your depth Strega. Try expounding on something you know something about.

[mcrit]

Hi Beaver:
I'm in that position now. I had a bit of time before I joined. If you have a CPL you will most likely get to bypass PFT (about 30 or so hours on the Grobb). I did. I forget who made the point earlier about military flying being very different from civilian flying. They were very right. The aircraft you will be flying will have alot more power than what you are used to, you will fly them using much different procedures than you are used to and the environment that you fly in will be much busier than what you are used to. There are many times when I am in the same boat as the guys that got here with 30 hrs on the Grobb. That is the bad news. The good news is that you will have a leg up on the instrument flying and the ground schools.
Overall I would encourage you to consider the Air Force. You get the chance, (and are expected), to develop a great deal more than just your flying skills. You will be taught how to employ people and resources to get a job done. I really like that aspect of the job, but some people don't. There is also the probability that you will get sent overseas and into a hostile environment. These are things to keep in mind.

[Strega]

You're out of your depth Strega. Try expounding on something you know something about.

Rockie,

I have never flown the pilatus, but have spoken with several CF pilots, not to mention others that regulary fly it. and all have told me its a rock solid platform, indeed with a lot of power, but nonetheless is a very simple machine. I wish I recall the captains name that I was speaking with in YYC, but I assure you, this is the truth.

[C-GGGQ]

Harvard II is the Texan II built by raytheon. The pilatus looks similar but is a different aircraft

[Strega]

Harvard II is the Texan II built by raytheon. The pilatus looks similar but is a different aircraft

The T-6 is a version of the Pilatus PC-9, modified significantly by Beechcraft in order to enter the Joint Primary Aircraft Training System (JPATS) competition in the 1990s.[2] The aircraft was designated under the 1962 United States Tri-Service aircraft designation system named for the decades-earlier T-6 Texan. A similar arrangement between Pilatus and British Aerospace had also been in place for an RAF competition in the 1980s, although this competition selected the Shorts Tucano. The Beechcraft brand has since been purchased from Raytheon by Onex Corporation as Hawker Beechcraft.[3]

The Texan II is built by Hawker Beechcraft in Wichita, Kansas. Although the design is heavily based on the Pilatus PC-9, the T-6 is a complete redesign from the ground up, and is considerably more sophisticated and powerful.[2]


Ok I stand corrected, my apologies.

[TheCheez]

Beaver
The wait time for courses is quite long these days(projection is ~5yrs to wings) and recruiting numbers are low for pilots. Even if you've got your heart set on flying in the CF don't put all your eggs in one basket. Get out there and find an entry level job civie side. My college friends are now working for Jazz or Capts on twin turbines with ~3k hrs and I've just recently got my wings and have ~380hrs going to fly hercs. All of us are at similar compensation levels except the Jazz guy who will catch up and me being in the forces will always be behind in logbook hours but get different experience and a more secure job for awhile. We graduated college in 2003.

Strega
I know a number of instructors from MJ and the cool thing to do these days seems to be downplaying how enjoyable the Harvard II is to fly. After flying the hawk in ph3(or Tutor back in the day), to these guys the Harvard II seems quite slow, sluggish and underpowered much the same way the King Air did to me after flying the Harvard II. As an instructor a lot of their time is spent hands off in the back watching the student perform basic maneuvers day in day out to the local area so sure it might seem like an overgrown 172 to them but to the students it's very capable. Those instructors enjoyed it as much the next guy when they were students themselves.

Bottom line is, for a new guy learning from the 30-120hr mark of experience it's a challenging and exciting plane.

Airbrake
I know the guys you're talking about. Looking back it's interesting to see how much different peoples careers are going to be because they were loaded 1 course earlier or later or any other number of factors that sees 40+ guys finishing basic training on the same day yet end up getting their wings at different points spread out over years and moving onto aircraft which might not even exist for the ones who're slower moving through the system or for the slower guys having doors open that were firmly closed to the early guys. Anyone thinking of joining has to realise that your career will almost certainly not be as straightforward as recruiting makes it out to be.

[C-GGGQ]

No problem strega, heck i didn't even know they were based on the same design, just figured it came out looking the same since it was for similiar roles.

[groundpilot]

Airbrake
I know the guys you're talking about. Looking back it's interesting to see how much different peoples careers are going to be because they were loaded 1 course earlier or later or any other number of factors that sees 40+ guys finishing basic training on the same day yet end up getting their wings at different points spread out over years and moving onto aircraft which might not even exist for the ones who're slower moving through the system or for the slower guys having doors open that were firmly closed to the early guys. Anyone thinking of joining has to realise that your career will almost certainly not be as straightforward as recruiting makes it out to be.

Very true and parallel to a saying from civilian flying "Being at the right place at the right time". I definitely wasnt expecting that when joining the CF. You don't have really any idea what your going to fly once you join the CF so if you do decide to join, have an open mind to flying anything. If your looking for a fast track to the airlines, I would suggest a different route.