Lets talk about the Piper Navajo

[skymarc]

Im looking for a good twin for private and corporate use. Cant decide between a Baron 58 or Navajo 310.
Whats the cost of operating, fuel flow etc...
Mission is pilot and 4-5 passengers, Ontario/Quebec and Eastern USA private and corporate 300-400nm IFR flights.
Friend of mine saying that I can run a Navajo cheaper than a Baron?
what do you guys think of the Colemill Panther conversion?
Any good storys to share?

[Mostly Harmless]

The fuel burn on a PA-31-310 is 220 pounds per hour with a block true airspeed of 180 knots. The cabin is larger and more comfortable than a Barron but I cannot comment on costs for a Barron.

If you treat the engines well, your reliability for the Navajo is excellent. It is an IFR machine that will take on icing conditions with confidence, and also an excellent bush plane; comfortably operating into and out of unimproved strips if required.

If you get the Panther conversion, you are now running the PA-31-350 engines and you can expect your fuel burns to be 250 pounds per hour with a block true airspeed of 190 knots (assuming 4 blade props). You will up your maintenance costs and fuel bill with the Panther mod, but will increase climb and cruise performance.

Expect a 10 Knot penalty off my quoted speeds if you buy something with wing lockers.

The Navajo will easily perform your stated needs. I have a lot of time in the ‘ho and while I don’t fly them any more, I enjoyed the aircraft and always felt comfortable flying them in all weather conditions and into all types of aerodromes.

I hope that helps.

[skymarc]

Thanks for the reply,

how good is the Navajo at shedding the ice? Is there really some Navajo that are known Ice certified?
can these engines be run lean of peaks ?

[V1RotateV2]

I would choose a Navajo over a Baron for these reasons:
*More comfort
*Better payload
*Way more parts and service available, including non OEM, approved parts.
*Much lower cost of maintenance
*Good single engine performance
*Stable IFR platform
*Good range
*Good with Ice

Another reason: have you ever seen a medevac or cargo Baron?

[roger.roger]

Is there really some Navajo that are known Ice certified?

Yes, the ho's that I drove were certified

[Just another canuck]

Just out of curiosity and a little off topic, what would be the cheapest twin turbine you could buy for the same purpose?

[C-GGGQ]

Baron fuel flow suprisingly is about the same as a navajo ( baron has a thirsty turbo) Baron would be a tad faster I believe but much smaller.

[200hr Wonder]

A Cessna 421 Conquest I? 250Knott TAS on that thing to. Or perhpas the bigger and more well known 441?

[Just another canuck]

A Cessna 421 Conquest I? 250Knott TAS on that thing to. Or perhpas the bigger and more well known 441?

That's what I figured... just though there might be something out there that was a little cheaper.

[oldtimer]

In my humble opinion, the Navajo is the airplane for you. Only fly in the ointment is that most Navajo's are commercial airplanes and as a result can be high time machines that have been run hard which says a lot for the durability of the airplane. Comercial operators wil only operate durable airplanes. If I were doing it, I would look for a good Chieftain with a VG kit. Much bigger bang for the buck. The longer fuselage and higher gross weight sure helps.
Go to TC's website and find the AIC on the Navajo icing certification. Some early serial Navajo 310's were not nor could they be certified for known ice because they did not have suficient pneumatic power for the boots. Later airplanes could be certified if they were properly equipped from the factory as opposed to someone going to the parts bin and slapping on some equipment. The later models came from the factory certified. I have heard said tat the PA 31 - 325 Navajo CR was a bit of a dud. The extras did not offset the cost and it was slower than a 310 but it should be considered if you can find a good one. As far as a turbine, it is hard to beat a good Cheyenne 11, especially the XL. A real hot rod with good numbers.

[flying4dollars]

Baron sucks in icing conditions...

[Sultan]

Navajo shedding ice depends alot on boot condition and if any Icex/IceShield has been applied. I always found the boots so-so at best, but the saving grace is the wing can pack alot on and give you time to get out of it. As for running lean of peak, I don't recommend it for the Navajo's. It's the one of the fastest ways to ruin the TIO540. There was a good article in Flying magazine about 10 years ago about a chieftain operator in Australia who always ran lean of peak. The result was dual catastrophic engine failures with the loss of all onboard. The accident report was very interesting as it pointed out science of how running lean of peak damaged the engines.

[Steve Baker]

I have read that accident report from Australia and as I recall, there was little to do with running lean of peak. There are some very good articles on Avweb by John Decon about running lean of peak. The process can be safely done in a Navajo but, you need balanced fuel injectors and engine monitors.

The Navajo has it all over the Baron. Far larger passenger compartment and not much slower. Most Barons are normally aspirated so, maintenance might be a little cheaper but, one of the most important things in ice avoidance is quickly climbing through the icing layer and turbos are key to that. The Chieftain is a great airplane for your stated mission.

[Benwa]

A Cessna 421 Conquest I? 250Knott TAS on that thing to. Or perhpas the bigger and more well known 441?

250 knots in a 421 ?? Maybe on MS Flight Simulator... but never in real life.

The 421 will go up to 215... maybe 220.

Don't get me wrong, it's the best twin piston... pressurization is better than the King Air 100.

The 441... it will cost you around 1.8 millions to get your hands on that beast. But you can cruise at around 300 knots @ FL280 on about 500 lbs/hrof Jet A. Not too bad. Problem with the Conquest II is the service life has been shortened to 22 500 hrs I think. With a SID requiring an extensive inspection. But then again value of those birds didn't budge.


A good turboprop for your needs would be the Cheyenne II. It's cheap to buy, you can haul 4-5 pax, will fly at around 260 kts. I used to fly one corporate, and it did a good job.

[iflyforpie]

A Baron 58 will give you room for a pilot and five passengers, but little else. They are not turbocharged so their performance (read ability to climb, not cruise) will degrade at higher altitudes.

A good solid 310 Navajo would be the best choice. It has room for those inevitable extra people and bags (especially with wing lockers). A Chieftain or Panther would give you more useful load at higher acquisition and operating costs.

As for being cheaper to operate than a Baron, no way. Insurance will be more, fuel burn will be more, and maintenance slightly higher as well (due to the larger airframe and the overhaul cost of the TIO-540 vs the IO-520).

Running LOP? Does the amount of fuel saved justify the cost of an engine analyzer and Gamijectors (reguired) and the potential for many other problems. I've heard plenty of stories from guys who do it all the time and get away with it (none I know of on the Navajo) but as an AME I strongly recommend against it. I run 100 ROP on my Continentals vs 50 ROP to be sure I don't burn anything.

Another thing to consider is the Navajo has a TIT limit which might not even let you get to peak before temping out.

Entry level turbine planes include the Cessna 425 Conquest (basically a 421 with PT6s, not to be confused with the entirely different 441 Conquest), Piper Cheyennes (the I and II), and early King Air 90s-although there are some deals to be had on early 100 models as well.

[Mostly Harmless]

The AFM will tell you if the Navajo you are looking at is certified for known ice or not. As stated, it depends on the individual airplane. I never had any problems shedding ice and felt the boots worked as well on the Navajo as any plane I ever flew.

I would say the best low cost turbine would be the Cheyenne. Try to get a 2, or a 3 would be even better.

I am not sure why running lean of peak would be important to you. The chances of burning a valve outweigh the cost of the extra fuel you may burn in cruise. Your range with full tanks is around 1400 nm.

[iflyforpie]

A Cessna 421 Conquest I? 250Knott TAS on that thing to. Or perhpas the bigger and more well known 441?

250 knots in a 421 ?? Maybe on MS Flight Simulator... but never in real life.

The 421 will go up to 215... maybe 220.

I think he meant the 425.

[youngtimer]

Having lot's of time in the 310, the 325 and the 350, I'd choose the 310 for private/corp use. It's quick and easy on the fuel compared to the other two. the 325 was nice to fly but slower (by a couple knots) than the 310 and burnt more fuel. The 350 is the best workhorse, but is a ground and fuel lover. Unless your hauling riggers and their barbells, the 310 will be great. Now is also the time to buy an aircraft, as there are lots for sale!
On second thought, consideration for a private/corp. aircraft would be the toilet, in which case the extra length of the 350 might be attractive...

As for leaning them, I always stuck with the books 125 rich of peak and never had so much as a hiccup on any of them. I've heard of cracked exhaust and failed turbos while (not proven to be related but...) running them hot.

[Benwa]

I think he meant the 425.

I think you're right !

[arctic navigator]

I've flown the Navajo 310 and 350 and found the 350 flew like a truck where the 310 was more of a sports car. We ran the 310 at 36", 2400, and 1300 TIT in the climb with the cowl flaps half closed and 32-34", 2200, and 1400 TIT in cruise with the cowl flaps closed. We burned 220 - 240 lbs/hr. The engines ran to 3000-3500 hours before overhaul and at that the teardown reports were always good. Fuel is cheap compared to replacing cylinder's, exhaust, and turbo's every 100 hrs. The biggest thing is run good oil and change it often, 50 hours or 3 months max, and don't shock cool the engines. I was in the states looking at a Beech and flew the guy's Aerostar as well. We got talking about the Aerostar compared to the Barron and for virtually the same money and operating cost you get a plane that is certified for known ice (if i recall they were all certified provided they're equipped properly) and is quite a bit faster.