The personal log book thing.

[valleyboy]

ut there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.

Exactly - I have never been asked to produce a log book being ramp checked, License, medical and radio license plus all aircraft and flight information. In Canada the PPC card is not required document but to not piss off inspectors I would produce it eventually if asked The PPC is not part of your licensing requirements and is actually required of the company to make sure you are current. I know where TC has been advised that a company would continue to fly without current PPC's because transport could not provide rides(before the free lance check pilot days). This goes back to it's perfectly legal to fly an aircraft (licence endorsed over 12500) privately or non revenue without a current PPC.

Commercially a company tracks your time so that satisfies the regs and non commercial, if you own your own aircraft who would care but if you are shelling out money renting the renter might want to see your times and history. IFR currency, well I guess you need to log your IFR time but as for me I could care less. I would never rent and if I had my own aircraft I would file and go. Contrary to belief there is no big fly swatter going to strike you down because you have rubbed up against a minor rule. I knew a guy in Toronto area who files IFR for years and never actually had the rating, never got caught.

There is so much stress and emphasis on over thinking everything. "Thinking on your feet" seems to becoming a lost art, possibly because everyone needs to consult their smart phone or tablet before making a decision.

Sure we should follow the rules but picking pepper out of fly sh1t is overboard. If you get that double registered letter in the mail your interpretation of the regs is about to be tested by a far better legal mind than yours. Making safe choices and only have basic working knowledge of the regs will get you through a full life time of flying pleasure.

[digits_]

ut there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.

Exactly - I have never been asked to produce a log book being ramp checked,

This topic got dredged up because Fadec *did* get ramp checked and asked about his logbook. Sure, it was in Heathrow, but pilots do tend to fly internationally.

[valleyboy]

I have been ramped in several countries - UK included and aircraft information was all that was ever asked for. The assumption being of you are doing it for a living qualifications and licences should be in order. You are also a foreign pilot and licensing rules might be different. In Canada the first thing they ask for is your license. In my opinion log books are too easy to falsify and really don't provide official proof of currency. It's like the farce of companies certifying a pilot's log book for Transport. I did it but never checked to see if the entries were accurate or even real.

[FLS Beam]

My valued Colleagues;

Upon observing the warm back and forth regarding the logbook aspects - I thought for a moment that I had inadvertently entered into into a litigators blog.

Clearly, there are numerous apps available to both the employer (charged with training and recency requirements) and an individual pilot; commercial or not. These are effective, documentable, printable and carryable.

Ever in flying philosophy, is the redundant aspect. Your e-log, the company e-log, and perhaps even the paper bound traditional log.

Legalities are well covered electronically. And so to step beyond the fervour of this regulatory and lawyerly oneupmanship discourse, could one not observe the pleasurable back up of a book?

Ray Bradbury said it well; “The years go by. The time, it does fly. Every single second is a moment in time that passes. And it seems like nothing - but when you are looking back.........well, it amounts to everything.”

My logbooks are not merely a locus of of paper, paste and ink. My logbooks are not on Google Books, or preserved by the pristinity of digital recollections. They are not dead weight, but live weight. They are imbued with the excitations of flights well executed - and with the crushing sentencing of those which were not. These books on my shelf are my books They are unlike any others, and are ornamented by notes, jottings, and photographs. They are a small rich library of self knowledge. A passionate working life with airplanes. Times of exultant satisfaction, and occasionally, times of self loathing. Spectacular scenes of sky and Earth and airplanes and friends.

Yes, legal conformity is the way of the world. But there is a special magic - a life beyond a merchants humdrum - that is this realm of airplane flying. And the life of it is in my pages.

Stay well, and fly safe for yourself. You are on the best journey possible. Even now.

FLS Beam





Sent from my iPad

[YYZSaabGuy]

Just....wow. I think that is one of the better-written posts this site has ever seen. Well done.

[AirFrame]

If the goal was to log every flight, then why would they specify you need it for recency? Why not just state you need to log every flight?

I interpret this as them writing the regulation to specify what they want to get out of it (a record of recency). Practically speaking, as recency is a rolling gate of your last X months, Y landings, etc., showing recency requires that you show the last N flights that show recency, and that could be asked at any time.

I suppose you could, in theory, just keep the last N flights written on a piece of paper that you could show if asked. But on every flight you'd need to erase the one at the top and add a new one to the bottom.

[FLS Beam]

4BF3F8BB-7132-4570-A859-F638BD6E7672.jpeg (1.67 MiB) Viewed 2497 times

This is what I meant. And what resonates still. The fibre of my life, and the timbre of these sounds.

FLS Beam

[photofly]

Why were you almost jailed in ... isn’t that Dakar? I sense a story...

[flaps78]

Good day,

For a private pilot or a commercial pilot that does not plan to fly outside of Canada then it is up to you as to whether or not you keep your log book up to date. In my case I do keep my log book up to date.

While I never carry my log books with me but I do carry a USB stick with a copy of all pertinent personal and professional information as well as the last 5 pages of my log book.. I have had held pilot validations for South Africa, Bermuda, Aruba , the Isle of Man and Australia. The Australia CASA was the only one that wanted to see my log books.Usually a copy of your last PPC was sufficient.

I have been "ramp checked" by TC, in Germany, UK and the non friendly folks of SAFA (France- 8 times) and have never been asked for my pilot's log book.

If you plan to reside in a foreign country and want to obtain a "local" pilot's licence expect to have to provide the CAA and your future employer your log books.

There is a large number of pilots on the international market that are fraudulent (Parker pen time etc)

My only regret regarding pilot log books is that I didn't turn them into journals. When I look at my log books, after 46 yeras of professional flying all I see is a/c registration, type, date, time and destination. There are so many ineresting stories that I have forgotten!

Flaps 78

[tuqi]

Sure, it was in Heathrow, but pilots do tend to fly internationally.

No requirement for a licence holder flying internationally to carry a personal log.

Para 10.3.1 in ICAO Doc 9379 (Manual of Procedures for Establishment and Management of a States Personnel Licensing System)

Recency requirements are easily verified by inspection of company records or pilot logbooks.
Note.— Pilot logbooks are not required to be on board aircraft in international civil aviation operations.

Agree with your interpretation of section 401.08. The words "for the documentation of" would be surplusage were it necessary for all flight experience to be recorded in a personal log.

[AirFrame]

Agree with your interpretation of section 401.08. The words "for the documentation of" would be surplusage were it necessary for all flight experience to be recorded in a personal log.

But what about the fact that recency is a rolling gate of your last N flights/hours? If you fly multiple aircraft, how do you show recency if you only have the log for the aircraft you're in at the time?

[tuqi]

Are you confusing a practical convenience with a legal obligation?

[goldeneagle]

But what about the fact that recency is a rolling gate of your last N flights/hours? If you fly multiple aircraft, how do you show recency if you only have the log for the aircraft you're in at the time?

You are confusing 'most recent' with 'recency requirements'. It is now September. If I have paperwork showing I did 6 IFR approaches and 5 night circuits back in April, I'm good to go in terms of recency requirements. It matters not wether I've done hundreds of approaches, or none, since then, I still meet the legal requirements for recency.

[photofly]

What are you going to do in October, when you didn't bother to log any flights May to September, because you had the ones from April? What's your criterion for deciding when you need to log a flight, and when you don't?

Let's say you decided not to log any flights in May, June or July. That's ok, you figure, I've got April's flights to get me to September, and then I'll log a bunch in September. Then a pandemic happens, or you have a medical issue, and you don't get to fly for three months. There you are in October, with nothing in the logbook for the last six months. Then you're going to wish you'd logged something back in July, aren't you?

[AirFrame]

Are you confusing a practical convenience with a legal obligation?.

I'm not confusing them, i'm showing that meeting the legal obligation requires a practical consideration that effectively results in keeping most, if not all, of a personal logbook anyway.

I agree that you don't need to keep anything before the flights that show recency, so you could erase or tear out any older entries if you like. But I can't conceive of a situation where i'd want to bother doing that.

[digits_]

A lot if people I know do a ppc ride every 12 months. That takes care of the IFR side of things. I am not saying it makes sense to only log certain flights, only that it is allowed.

Night landings are only important to carry pax, so why would a single seat owner bother logging those?

[valleyboy]

I have always wondered, is the personal log book considered a legal document? Aircraft log books are and to falsify entries is a criminal offence. I have never heard of anyone being charged for padding their times, even when they get caught by their employer, Air Canada but I know of people and airlines being charged for false aircraft logbook entries.

Commercially, if there is a question of currency, even in a ramp check the inspector always goes to the company and pilot training files to verify. These issues are usually found in a audit and not on a ramp check. Maintaining licences is a pilot's responsibility, being current is the company's.

General aviation I doubt if TC really cares unless there is an incident, not necessarily an accident, so if you are not current like in IFR or night you can carry on and never get caught unless you have a cockup. To do so, is that in your best interest? Most of us picture ourselves striving to be professional but at the end of the day we all make our own choices.

[photofly]

I have always wondered, is the personal log book considered a legal document? Aircraft log books are and to falsify entries is a criminal offence.

See section 7.3 of the Aeronautics Act: $5000 fine and a year in prison, for individuals, and a $25,000 fine for corporations.

[valleyboy]

See section 7.3 of the Aeronautics Act: $5000 fine and a year in prison, for individuals, and a $25,000 fine for corporations.

OK, here's the problem there is no reference directly made to keeping a personal logbook. It only covers, from what I can read, is a reference in make fraudulent references to "knowingly make any false representation for the purpose of obtaining a Canadian aviation document or any privilege accorded thereby;"

The way I read that is yes, if you are using the personal log to obtain a licence or an endorsement you are in violation. I can see major loop holes such as a second log after all licences are obtained with no declarations of times being certified correct etc. If you choose the route of not maintaining a personal log in canada, other countries are more restrictive, when you feel it is no longer applicable you don't need to. That simple.

I have never had to produce a log book, as a company employee to obtain a aircraft endorsement, nor have I ever been asked to produce a personal logbook when applying to TC for chief pilot or director of flight operations positions.

[photofly]

Paragraph 7.3(1)(c):

7.3 (1) No person shall
...
(c) make or cause to be made any false entry in a record required under this Part to be kept with intent to mislead or wilfully omit to make any entry in any such record;

Penalty for infringment as noted above.

Then see section 4.9(s):

4.9 The Governor in Council may make regulations respecting aeronautics and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, may make regulations respecting
.
.
.
(s) the keeping and preservation of records and documents relating to aerodromes, to activities, with respect to aeronautics, of persons who hold Canadian aviation documents and to aeronautical products and equipment and facilities used to provide services relating to aeronautics;

And lo and behold, just such a regulation exists, in the form of CAR 401.08.

So - 401.08 requires you to keep a log, the regulation is is made under section 4.9 of the Aeronautics Act, since section 4.9 of the Aeronautics Act is in Part 1 of the act, wilfully falsifying an entry in that log puts you afoul of section 7.3 of that same act.

[valleyboy]

You see that's the problem with Canadian regs and that is interpretation and for most part poorly written. . I disagree, unless you are producing a log to get licences etc there is no requirement. Currency can be dealt with outside a personal log book. Working for a company fulfils all legal requirements based on company records.

[photofly]

I don’t think this one is poorly written.

At least I don’t think one’s reluctance to be bothered to log every flight should affect one’s judgement on the matter.

[AuxBatOn]

You see that's the problem with Canadian regs and that is interpretation and for most part poorly written. . I disagree, unless you are producing a log to get licences etc there is no requirement. Currency can be dealt with outside a personal log book. Working for a company fulfils all legal requirements based on company records.

CARs are generally fairly clear if English written comprehension is strong.

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

What this says is that if you apply for a license/permit/rating or hold a license/permit/rating you need to keep a logbook with the intent to show experience (when applying for a license, permit or rating) and to show recency.

The next paragraph goes into the details on how this is to be done.

The paragraph specifically mentions that every flight needs to be logged.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

What this means is that if you are required to maintain a logbook because you are applying for a license, permit or rating, or to show recency, you need to log each and every flight (not only those related to the items in 1(a) and 1(b)).

What happens in practice may differ but this is in contravention to 401.08(1).

The only time I could think you wouldn’t be required to log every flight is if you were pre-solo with no intent to solo.

[AirFrame]

wilfully falsifying an entry in that log puts you afoul of section 7.3 of that same act.

I don't think anyone has suggested that a log be *falsified*. Only that a log doesn't need to contain every flight. Omitting a flight here or there isn't a falsification, you're not claiming something happened that didn't.

The only time I could think you wouldn’t be required to log every flight is if you were pre-solo with no intent to solo.

What if you are a private pilot with no intent to pursue any more ratings or a commercial license?

[AuxBatOn]

wilfully falsifying an entry in that log puts you afoul of section 7.3 of that same act.

I don't think anyone has suggested that a log be *falsified*. Only that a log doesn't need to contain every flight. Omitting a flight here or there isn't a falsification, you're not claiming something happened that didn't.

The only time I could think you wouldn’t be required to log every flight is if you were pre-solo with no intent to solo.

What if you are a private pilot with no intent to pursue any more ratings or a commercial license?

You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.