The personal log book thing.

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AirFrame
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AirFrame »

tuqi wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:07 pmAgree with your interpretation of section 401.08. The words "for the documentation of" would be surplusage were it necessary for all flight experience to be recorded in a personal log.
But what about the fact that recency is a rolling gate of your last N flights/hours? If you fly multiple aircraft, how do you show recency if you only have the log for the aircraft you're in at the time?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by tuqi »

Are you confusing a practical convenience with a legal obligation?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by goldeneagle »

AirFrame wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:17 am But what about the fact that recency is a rolling gate of your last N flights/hours? If you fly multiple aircraft, how do you show recency if you only have the log for the aircraft you're in at the time?
You are confusing 'most recent' with 'recency requirements'. It is now September. If I have paperwork showing I did 6 IFR approaches and 5 night circuits back in April, I'm good to go in terms of recency requirements. It matters not wether I've done hundreds of approaches, or none, since then, I still meet the legal requirements for recency.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

What are you going to do in October, when you didn't bother to log any flights May to September, because you had the ones from April? What's your criterion for deciding when you need to log a flight, and when you don't?

Let's say you decided not to log any flights in May, June or July. That's ok, you figure, I've got April's flights to get me to September, and then I'll log a bunch in September. Then a pandemic happens, or you have a medical issue, and you don't get to fly for three months. There you are in October, with nothing in the logbook for the last six months. Then you're going to wish you'd logged something back in July, aren't you?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AirFrame »

tuqi wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:03 am Are you confusing a practical convenience with a legal obligation?.
I'm not confusing them, i'm showing that meeting the legal obligation requires a practical consideration that effectively results in keeping most, if not all, of a personal logbook anyway.

I agree that you don't need to keep anything before the flights that show recency, so you could erase or tear out any older entries if you like. But I can't conceive of a situation where i'd want to bother doing that.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

A lot if people I know do a ppc ride every 12 months. That takes care of the IFR side of things. I am not saying it makes sense to only log certain flights, only that it is allowed.

Night landings are only important to carry pax, so why would a single seat owner bother logging those?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by valleyboy »

I have always wondered, is the personal log book considered a legal document? Aircraft log books are and to falsify entries is a criminal offence. I have never heard of anyone being charged for padding their times, even when they get caught by their employer, Air Canada but I know of people and airlines being charged for false aircraft logbook entries.

Commercially, if there is a question of currency, even in a ramp check the inspector always goes to the company and pilot training files to verify. These issues are usually found in a audit and not on a ramp check. Maintaining licences is a pilot's responsibility, being current is the company's.

General aviation I doubt if TC really cares unless there is an incident, not necessarily an accident, so if you are not current like in IFR or night you can carry on and never get caught unless you have a cockup. To do so, is that in your best interest? Most of us picture ourselves striving to be professional but at the end of the day we all make our own choices.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

valleyboy wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:53 am I have always wondered, is the personal log book considered a legal document? Aircraft log books are and to falsify entries is a criminal offence.
See section 7.3 of the Aeronautics Act: $5000 fine and a year in prison, for individuals, and a $25,000 fine for corporations.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by valleyboy »

See section 7.3 of the Aeronautics Act: $5000 fine and a year in prison, for individuals, and a $25,000 fine for corporations.
OK, here's the problem there is no reference directly made to keeping a personal logbook. It only covers, from what I can read, is a reference in make fraudulent references to "knowingly make any false representation for the purpose of obtaining a Canadian aviation document or any privilege accorded thereby;"

The way I read that is yes, if you are using the personal log to obtain a licence or an endorsement you are in violation. I can see major loop holes such as a second log after all licences are obtained with no declarations of times being certified correct etc. If you choose the route of not maintaining a personal log in canada, other countries are more restrictive, when you feel it is no longer applicable you don't need to. That simple.

I have never had to produce a log book, as a company employee to obtain a aircraft endorsement, nor have I ever been asked to produce a personal logbook when applying to TC for chief pilot or director of flight operations positions.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

Paragraph 7.3(1)(c):
7.3 (1) No person shall
...
(c) make or cause to be made any false entry in a record required under this Part to be kept with intent to mislead or wilfully omit to make any entry in any such record;
Penalty for infringment as noted above.

Then see section 4.9(s):
4.9 The Governor in Council may make regulations respecting aeronautics and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, may make regulations respecting
.
.
.
(s) the keeping and preservation of records and documents relating to aerodromes, to activities, with respect to aeronautics, of persons who hold Canadian aviation documents and to aeronautical products and equipment and facilities used to provide services relating to aeronautics;
And lo and behold, just such a regulation exists, in the form of CAR 401.08.

So - 401.08 requires you to keep a log, the regulation is is made under section 4.9 of the Aeronautics Act, since section 4.9 of the Aeronautics Act is in Part 1 of the act, wilfully falsifying an entry in that log puts you afoul of section 7.3 of that same act.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by valleyboy »

You see that's the problem with Canadian regs and that is interpretation and for most part poorly written. . I disagree, unless you are producing a log to get licences etc there is no requirement. Currency can be dealt with outside a personal log book. Working for a company fulfils all legal requirements based on company records.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

I don’t think this one is poorly written.

At least I don’t think one’s reluctance to be bothered to log every flight should affect one’s judgement on the matter.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AuxBatOn »

valleyboy wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:41 pm You see that's the problem with Canadian regs and that is interpretation and for most part poorly written. . I disagree, unless you are producing a log to get licences etc there is no requirement. Currency can be dealt with outside a personal log book. Working for a company fulfils all legal requirements based on company records.
CARs are generally fairly clear if English written comprehension is strong.

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

What this says is that if you apply for a license/permit/rating or hold a license/permit/rating you need to keep a logbook with the intent to show experience (when applying for a license, permit or rating) and to show recency.

The next paragraph goes into the details on how this is to be done.

The paragraph specifically mentions that every flight needs to be logged.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

What this means is that if you are required to maintain a logbook because you are applying for a license, permit or rating, or to show recency, you need to log each and every flight (not only those related to the items in 1(a) and 1(b)).

What happens in practice may differ but this is in contravention to 401.08(1).

The only time I could think you wouldn’t be required to log every flight is if you were pre-solo with no intent to solo.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AirFrame »

photofly wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:59 pmwilfully falsifying an entry in that log puts you afoul of section 7.3 of that same act.
I don't think anyone has suggested that a log be *falsified*. Only that a log doesn't need to contain every flight. Omitting a flight here or there isn't a falsification, you're not claiming something happened that didn't.
AuxBaton wrote:The only time I could think you wouldn’t be required to log every flight is if you were pre-solo with no intent to solo.
What if you are a private pilot with no intent to pursue any more ratings or a commercial license?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AuxBatOn »

AirFrame wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:37 am
photofly wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:59 pmwilfully falsifying an entry in that log puts you afoul of section 7.3 of that same act.
I don't think anyone has suggested that a log be *falsified*. Only that a log doesn't need to contain every flight. Omitting a flight here or there isn't a falsification, you're not claiming something happened that didn't.
AuxBaton wrote:The only time I could think you wouldn’t be required to log every flight is if you were pre-solo with no intent to solo.
What if you are a private pilot with no intent to pursue any more ratings or a commercial license?
You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

The discussion about falsification Comes from here:
valleyboy wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:53 am I have always wondered, is the personal log book considered a legal document? Aircraft log books are and to falsify entries is a criminal offence. I have never heard of anyone being charged for padding their times, even when they get caught by their employer, Air Canada but I know of people and airlines being charged for false aircraft logbook entries.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:59 am

You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.
No, you need to log every flight needed to show recency.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by valleyboy »

The total irony of it is that TC does not go by your log book if there is a question of currency or legality. If they consider you might be in violation they will not just take your log book information. They will ferret out your the journey logs, which there is no question, it's a legal document and they want an airtight case if there are charges. If they don't do this and you challenge they know it will be thrown out. They might violate you and hope intimidation cause you to just plead guilty, oh ya you are guilty until you can prove it not to be true. Surprising the number of pilots who will just lay down. As soon as you do not have a certified and witnessed log book what does that acutely prove. Night flights, they may take your log book as being OK but if there is any question you will need to produce actual aircraft documentation.

There is a lot of confusion to what constitutes a log. I maintain, as it's written imn the regs, there are none certified by transport canada as an official government log book. There is a format that is required but as far as I'm concerned you can keep it on toilet paper if you so choose.

Now you have to realise I am looking at this from a commercial, working pilot point of view. The company keeps records and this satisfies any logging requirements. Once you cross over from general aviation, no one produces log books to conduct training, PPC's or any other currency issues. Even new type endorsements, no log book. I never even checked log books when I was hiring.

My last log book entry was in 1974 and I have never needed to produce one since. That shows you how important it is. If I walk into a place to rent an aircraft I can rent without producing a personal log. They will check my licences and if they meet the requirements I do their training and I'm in. Once you achieve your ATP you have established an experience level that they can accept.

Even if I were a private pilot with IFR and a night rating I would still take pictures of the journey log to prove my currency and produce those if asked. I think you would find that's all TC is looking for, they really don't care about a personal log book if you have documentation that is traceable and easy to find. I know I would never accept a personal log book as being accurate. When I started fly I only logged air time and was so surprised when pilots who started a year or more behind me passed me in total time in one season. I guess adding an hour of taxi time on a 20 minute flight adds up, especially with 15 hour days and the average of 10 trips a day. -- damn !! That's"legal" padding as far as I'm concerned. I guess that's why I have maintained my mindset to dismiss a personal log book as being possible bullshit. That's why qualifications during hiring was all I looked for and would take the time on the CV as a starting point of the interview and I could pretty much tell you if the guy was truthful about his experience level. Personal log books after I achieved the highest license possible became something I wasn't interested in any more. People ask me what my total time is, I can't honestly answer that but I do say that in 1974 I had more than 5000 hours so I let them do the math. We flew our asses off and ski season on the DC flying as much as 60 hours a week or more and not a day off for the whole season except for WX. In YRB they were doing even more. Times have changed and for the most part for the good. FLD times and fatigue is slowly moving to where they should be but a lot of push back from carriers, especially in 703 where they are needed to most.

Final point, if you are not certifying your personal log continuously by a third and qualified person or keeping a reference to journey logs. It's just a piece of personal information produced by you and no real legal standing.

cheers
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AuxBatOn »

digits_ wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:08 am
AuxBatOn wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:59 am

You still need a logbook (as you are a holder of a license and need to show recency). According to the CARs, if you need a logbook, you need to log every flight.
No, you need to log every flight needed to show recency.
Nope. If you need to maintain a log (there are two reasons you would be required to maintain a log: show recency and apply for a license/permit/rating), you need to log every flight.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AuxBatOn »

valleyboy wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:15 am The total irony of it is that TC does not go by your log book if there is a question of currency or legality. If they consider you might be in violation they will not just take your log book information. They will ferret out your the journey logs, which there is no question, it's a legal document and they want an airtight case if there are charges. If they don't do this and you challenge they know it will be thrown out. They might violate you and hope intimidation cause you to just plead guilty, oh ya you are guilty until you can prove it not to be true. Surprising the number of pilots who will just lay down. As soon as you do not have a certified and witnessed log book what does that acutely prove. Night flights, they may take your log book as being OK but if there is any question you will need to produce actual aircraft documentation.

There is a lot of confusion to what constitutes a log. I maintain, as it's written imn the regs, there are none certified by transport canada as an official government log book. There is a format that is required but as far as I'm concerned you can keep it on toilet paper if you so choose.

Now you have to realise I am looking at this from a commercial, working pilot point of view. The company keeps records and this satisfies any logging requirements. Once you cross over from general aviation, no one produces log books to conduct training, PPC's or any other currency issues. Even new type endorsements, no log book. I never even checked log books when I was hiring.

My last log book entry was in 1974 and I have never needed to produce one since. That shows you how important it is. If I walk into a place to rent an aircraft I can rent without producing a personal log. They will check my licences and if they meet the requirements I do their training and I'm in. Once you achieve your ATP you have established an experience level that they can accept.

Even if I were a private pilot with IFR and a night rating I would still take pictures of the journey log to prove my currency and produce those if asked. I think you would find that's all TC is looking for, they really don't care about a personal log book if you have documentation that is traceable and easy to find. I know I would never accept a personal log book as being accurate. When I started fly I only logged air time and was so surprised when pilots who started a year or more behind me passed me in total time in one season. I guess adding an hour of taxi time on a 20 minute flight adds up, especially with 15 hour days and the average of 10 trips a day. -- damn !! That's"legal" padding as far as I'm concerned. I guess that's why I have maintained my mindset to dismiss a personal log book as being possible bullshit. That's why qualifications during hiring was all I looked for and would take the time on the CV as a starting point of the interview and I could pretty much tell you if the guy was truthful about his experience level. Personal log books after I achieved the highest license possible became something I wasn't interested in any more. People ask me what my total time is, I can't honestly answer that but I do say that in 1974 I had more than 5000 hours so I let them do the math. We flew our asses off and ski season on the DC flying as much as 60 hours a week or more and not a day off for the whole season except for WX. In YRB they were doing even more. Times have changed and for the most part for the good. FLD times and fatigue is slowly moving to where they should be but a lot of push back from carriers, especially in 703 where they are needed to most.

Final point, if you are not certifying your personal log continuously by a third and qualified person or keeping a reference to journey logs. It's just a piece of personal information produced by you and no real legal standing.

cheers
What you are required to maintain in a log is detailed in 401.08(2). If the journey logs contain that information, you can take pictures and maintain your log that way. If you want to scribble that information on a white piece of paper, you go for it. Format is not mandated. The information your log contains is mandated. Note that being certified is not required. It doesn’t prevent it from being official. TC, in this case, trust that pilots are honest in how they log flights. If people are caught falsifying their logs, there are penalties associated with it.
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